'Nurses are well paid for the job'

[Letsallscreamatthesistene]

An MP said this today, in responce to the debate surrounding the 1% pay rise. Im a nurse, and I know what I think (that the pay is ok, not terrible but not fantastic), im really interested to know what others think?

Hmm, it's a very emotive subject.

At the moment, employers have a statutory obligation to contribute 3% pension (and this is a pretty recent policy). NHS contributes 20%. My employer (private sector) contributes 5%. I try to have half my age as a percentage of gross salary in pension contributions, so I need to make up the remainder - and my pension will never be as much as those in the NHS. So I find it a bit disingenuous of public sector workers complaining of having to make contributions to their own pension.

On a different matter, the job is very secure, and highly transferrable.

And ultimately, it's down to simple economics - supply and demand. While there are enough people willing to train in nursing, the government only needs to pay what is necessary to attract those people. It has nothing to do with the perceived value of the work.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen a one-off bonus to those public sector workers directly impacted by Covid, and that includes teachers, bin men, the lot. Medics have had to deal with a lot this year, but they're not the only ones who've gone above and beyond.

the government only needs to pay what is necessary to attract those people.

The government needs to pay for retention, not to attract

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

the government only needs to pay what is necessary to attract those people.

The government needs to pay for retention, not to attract

I suppose it's attraction and retention, basically, it's what the market will bear. If the government was finding it difficult to retain sufficient staff, then they'd need to reconsider, and it goes without saying there are LOTS of people employed to benchmark and track this within the public sector (I know someone who does this in a different part of the sector).

"I would have liked to have seen a one-off bonus to those public sector workers directly impacted by Covid, and that includes teachers, bin men, the lot. Medics have had to deal with a lot this year, but they're not the only ones who've gone above and beyond"

What have been the Covid issues for bin men? A job where there should not be any close contact with the public?

"totally ignoring that practice nursing is a specialist nursing skill and requires additional training and experience. Same for those in the private sector but obviously it is not possible for the gov to set a figure for those sectors."

Seems to be physically much easier though - more options for sitting down etc. (not that that should affect pay necessarily).

"NHS contributes 20%. "

Wow. I thought I was doing well when I had 10% in a public sector job.

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

the government only needs to pay what is necessary to attract those people.

The government needs to pay for retention, not to attract

45,000 vacancies and yet apparently pay isn’t an issue...

I agree that it is retaining staff that is the problem. There are a lot of people with years of experience who are the back bone of the NHS.
I can see them putting their coats on to go after the year they have had.

YANBU
Nurses deserve more!

I have been qualified since 2002. Still at diploma level and I have another 25 years before retirement. I am on top band 5. I act as a band 6, frequently having to stay late at work due to my skills which I don’t get paid any extra for.
When the pandemic hit and surgery was stopped, I redeployed to ITU where I had worked previously. It was gruelling. And heartbreaking.
I am interviewing for a band 6 next week- alongside 2 others. None of us is a clear shoe in for this job- nobody can call it and it will all depend on who scores the highest on the day- alongside how well we scored for our applications. There is not likely to be another band 6 available for a few years and then after that, several years.
I am paid £30615 and don’t get any enhancements for unsocial hours. Even if I stayed on an extra 4 hours past my finish time- that goes down as time owing.

Our trust has rules for off duty planning. The rotas must be planned and filled using current staff to cover unsocial hours first (nights and weekends) so that they can backfill (or not!) with agency staff on weekdays on cheaper rates.
When I first qualified, we worked 8 hour shifts, 5 days a week. We worked 2 weekends out of 4. This meant that we worked 16 hours over the weekend. Now, we are only entitled to one weekend off per 4 and have to work 2x 12.5 hour shifts- hence my jumping ship to day surgery as there was just no home life to speak of. When was I supposed to help my children with their weekend homework? Sort their school uniforms out? Take them out somewhere nice?
This is one of the things which doesn’t get seen- so pay has stagnated which means less spending power and our own time has been reduced hugely. It impacts on family life and has broken up many families due to divorce.
Clinical skills, knowledge and experience don’t get you any extra pay, you have to show that you are progressing clinically in order to pass through the pay gates to progress to top band 5.
When I first started in the nhs, we could retire at 55 on a full pension, provided we had 20 years full time equivalent pension contributions. Everyone my age and slightly above has been forced half way across to the new pension which means that we are not able to retire until 68 without huge financial losses. There is no way that I would be able to work full time on a ward at 68. It’s such hard work.
Even now, being on your feet for a whole shift is hard going and I’m only 43. I’m not overweight either.

Emma stone - if lots of people are employed to benchmark nurses pay to retain and attract people, why are vacancies so high? Attracting nurses and having low retention is not economically effective.

It’s be interesting to see what nurses high priorities are in terms of increasing retention.

I think they should pilot initiatives like mandatory staffing ratios (staff per patient). Well staffed wards may have less staff sickness and less agency requirement, so may not cost a large amount more.

Also try flexible shift pattern (multiple types of shift - perhaps shared in the hospitals in an area). I met 2 nurses who went agency because they were given inflexible shifts (sometime even when they had sorted out a job-share to cover a pattern themselves).

@BuggerBognor

The pension is still eye watering despite reform and the selective blindness to the “good bits” of being employed in the public sector (as *@EmmaStone* posts above) make me doubtful that the package really is that poor, relatively speaking. The pay complaints seem more like a reflex action. I think there is a general ignorance about how much those in the private sector actually earn - the comments upthread about paralegals earning £18k didn’t surprise me at all and I’m willing to bet they don’t get any overtime pay either.

Overtime, sick pay and pension are all markedly better for nurses than someone in a commensurate job in the private sector.

I find it pretty tone deaf to complain at this point tbh - we haven’t seen the economic devastation of Covid yet and won’t until Rishi stops paying half the country’s salary.

Can you define what is ‘eye watering’ about the pension? You don’t seem to be aware that senior staff can’t claim overtime, at all i.e extra hours are unpaid.

I'm top of Band 7 and have been for several years. I am happy with my wages although where I am I am unable to purchase a house on my own (South East)
However, due to inflation the value of my wages has reduced by 20%.
When people discuss a pay increase I feel too much emphasis is put on the pandemic. A pay rise of more than 1% is needed to keep up with inflation, regardless of what's been going on over the last year.

What @Sparklynewname said ^^

I can't put it any better than that.

Also, moving up the pay bands makes you more expensive for your employer - in most settings (ED, theatres and ICU are exceptions) band 6/7 and above are NOT going to be working a shift pattern with unsocial hours, weekends and nights, so you lose those pay enhancements.

Many nurses work additional shifts - there is constant pressure to do this. My trust doesn't pay overtime - extra shifts are organised through the staff 'bank' and paid at normal rate (and taxed as second job). I am frequently late leaving work - an hour or more is not uncommon . This is not paid, although we can claim it as time owing.

I honestly don't see how I can work like this until 68. It is physically so demanding and stressful.

The NHS Pension is only good if you can afford to pay into it. If you have to opt out because every last penny goes on essential bills, it doesn't matter how good it is if you cannot afford to benefit from it.

@Gwenhwyfar

"I would have liked to have seen a one-off bonus to those public sector workers directly impacted by Covid, and that includes teachers, bin men, the lot. Medics have had to deal with a lot this year, but they're not the only ones who've gone above and beyond"

What have been the Covid issues for bin men? A job where there should not be any close contact with the public?

No working from home, no furlough, having to share cabs, increased workload....Also shop workers (although not public sector).

I think some of these comments highlights the lack of understanding between different types of workers. Previous working practices regarding shift work and overtime (and overtime paid at a higher rate) are being modernised, and reflect how private sector workers already work. Retiring at 55 to be paid for 30-40 years? Potentially longer than one had actually worked for? That just doesn't add up! It's an out-dated working model and needed reform.

I can't really comment on vacancies, I don't know enough about the job sector, but to be followed by another post with 3 nurses going for the same job is interesting. However the multiple of anecdote does not equal data so I draw no conclusions.

As for the comments of nurses deserving more, THIS is where it gets emotive. Yes, medics are doing huge things for us and our loved ones, but unfortunately, salaries are hugely determined by supply and demand, not on how deserving someone's role is.

To those of you saying it's ok outside London - large parts of the South East is also very expensive, but by the time you put SEEngland plus London together thats around 19million......actually quite a large section of UK population. But that amount of money really doesnt get you far in South East/London - though they still need nurses (and teachers)

Overtime, sick pay and pension are all markedly better for nurses than someone in a commensurate job in the private sector.

They literally aren’t, hence nurses jumping ship to work in the private sector. I work in dialysis (not as a nurse), and two of our units are privately run (Fresenius/Diaverum/Baxter). Our NHS dialysis nurses get poached by the private units, because the pay and conditions are significantly better. I’ve been shown the figures by nursing colleagues. It’s about a £5k difference in pay, plus no on calls.

EmmaStone -which would be true if it wasnt for the shortage of nurses in the NHS. So the supply problem is definitely there - but this hasnt resulted in a wage increase.

followed by another post with 3 nurses going for the same job is interesting

Thats a band 6 job - that posters point was that there just isnt that many floating around, so most nurses stay at top band 5 for their career because the opportunity for progression is little

"No working from home, no furlough, having to share cabs, increased workload....Also shop workers (although not public sector)."

No working from home and no furlough are not bad things though. I hate working from home and don't consider it a privilege - although I understand that a lot of parents do. Going to your work and doing it is not a hardship linked to the pandemic like having to deal with Covid patients!
Furlough is for people who can't work during the pandemic. Again, not getting furlough isn't a hardship. It means they were on 100% pay rather than 80% pay.
What was the increased workload? My council decreased recycling rather than increased it.
Having to share cabs? Yes, maybe if it can be demonstrated that led to higher risk of Covid.

I'm a band 6 nurse, I have a degree in nursing and currently doing a specialist qualification. I dont think I'm paid adequately for my skills, or enough for how much it takes over my life.

Scotland have already given a bonus to health and social care staff (not just public sector ones) and a generous pay increase of around 2.5% to NHS last year. Many supermarkets and internet retailers have also given employees a bonus.