Mother -daughter terf v transgender defender

[Happylittlethoughts]

I know there is no answer here. I just feel very sad . On the topic of Biden being a good move for the USA, I commented "Unless you are a woman- or mensrtruator"
Well my daughter and I clash over TERF - versus Transgender defender. She stormed out and I feel very sad . We are very close except for this issue so I guess it jars a bit more . I feel horrified she will let Women's Rights be eroded this way. I guess its just a no go area, but I feel despised in that moment for stating my view.

@shindiggery

It's fine. She can wait until she's in a gym getting undressed next to some 6 foot "woman" with "her" dick out or goes for a smear test and has the speculum administered by a trans woman and maybe then she'll start to come to her senses.

With vitriol like this around, I think it's far more likely she'll be traumatised by someone like you.

Agree.

I don’t have any issue with my smear test being performed by a woman, man, transgender.

It’s so so sad that people (particularly on this thread) can’t understand that others don’t share the exact same views as them, and that’s ok.

@LochJessMonster it's about having the choice. If everything is mixed sex and we're not allowed to really specify a woman for intimate exams, then... Is that also " so so sad" for the rest of us?

I wonder what everyone's definition of a trans woman is. My posts on this thread would have been quite different years ago, when I thought this meant a post-operative transsexual. If most have working penises in addition to male strength (and male patterns of behaviour), then the issue is quite different.

@TedMullins

What exactly is wrong with having a smear test done by a trans woman or mixed sex/gender changing rooms? You do realise some people genuinely don’t have a problem with this? I don’t think anyone would argue there isn’t an issue with sex offenders in women’s prisons and this should be dealt with accordingly, but it’s hardly comparable to a gym or a public toilet is it.

Trump facilitated banning and rolling back abortion, talked openly about sexually assaulting women, admitted a rapist to the Supreme Court, talked about his own daughter in a sleazy, sexual manner... I could go on. How exactly was he an ally to women? It’s delusional to think his stance on trans people was because he cared about women.

Let me repeat this until I'm blue in the face. YOU CANNOT CONSENT ON BEHALF OF OTHER WOMEN.

You cannot consent for women to have smear tests administered by males.

You cannot consent for women to have to get changed next to biological males in a changing room.

You cannot consent for lesbians to have sex with "trans women".

So just because YOU don't mind, doesn't mean the rest of us don't. We do and we DO NOT CONSENT.

And btw there was a thread on here just a few weeks ago from a woman who had had a speculum roughly administered with little sympathy by a female nurse and felt traumatised and said she wanted to complain. At the time everything had moved too fast for her to be able to say anything or explain her nervousness to the nurse.

Most women feel this when it comes to their smear test.

Many, many women therefore specifically request female practitioners because they feel more comfortable.

I can only imagine how much more traumatised the poster I mention would have been had it been a male nurse.

Now imagine a young woman in that poster's position who has specifically requested a female practitioner and is presented with a trans nurse. This is a woman who couldn't even feel comfortable enough to express her discomfort with the procedure to the female nurse and came away feeling traumatised. You really think she'd feel comfortable saying "I want a biologically female nurse"? And why the fuck should she have to spell that out anyway?

And as PP said, there is a clear link between mixed sex changing rooms (what is "mixed gender"?) and sexual assaults.

Enough fucking men manage to install cameras in women's loos without being allowed in. Why on earth would we give them an Access All Areas pass?

it's about having the choice

It's about not becoming abusive with the vengeful vitriol from some posters on this thread who would clearly rub their hands with glee if it ever came to pass that a trans rights supporter was assaulted in these circumstances. Disgusting.

I really think there is more malice and abuse among radical feminists towards women who don't support them than has ever taken place in a mixed space changing room.

@shindiggery

I really think there is more malice and abuse among radical feminists towards women who don't support them than has ever taken place in a mixed space changing room.

Please quote some "malice and abuse" from feminists on this thread

@shindiggery

it's about having the choice

It's about not becoming abusive with the vengeful vitriol from some posters on this thread who would clearly rub their hands with glee if it ever came to pass that a trans rights supporter was assaulted in these circumstances. Disgusting.

There have been plenty of assaults by trans women on women. This is not an "if". It has happened.

And you should be ashamed to even utter the sentiment that any feminist would ever take pleasure or delight in hearing a woman has been assaulted, regardless of who the perpetrator was.

It's about not becoming abusive with the vengeful vitriol from some posters on this thread who would clearly rub their hands with glee if it ever came to pass that a trans rights supporter was assaulted in these circumstances. Disgusting

wut?

people disagreeing with you and pointing out the logical conclusion of your beliefs is not abuse. I know it may feel that way when you're battling your brain to try to believe 5 impossible things before breakfast, but trust me...not abuse

@Natsku

She's young, she doesn't have the experience to really understand the issue yet, its much rarer for young women to comprehend the issues or, if they do understand them, to feel secure enough in themselves to recognise the issues. Give her time.

That's really patronising. I am 63 and I agree with her. And I have been a feminist, in all likelihood, longer than you have been alive. I respect your right to a differing opinion, but believe you are wrong as strongly as you believe you are right. Age has nothing to do with it. Of course, I guess that when you have lived as long as I have, it's always possible that you will grow up too !

So now you are being patronising! Natsku made a perfectly valid point. Life experience does make a difference.

My views have certainly evolved, but then I am 70....give it time

@shindiggery

I really think there is more malice and abuse among radical feminists towards women who don't support them than has ever taken place in a mixed space changing room.

Really? Physical assault?

Really?

Tbh I'd be fine with a mixed sex changing room if the worst that could happen was someone telling me I'm a bad feminist or whatever.

I've been alive almost as long as you have @Moondust001 and I know that a feminist that centres men isn't actually a feminist.

Also I absolutely LOL at the idea that this is a "radical feminist" thing and that the average woman is absolutely at ease with naked dicks sharing the changing room with her and her daughter. It's not exactly radical. It's pretty conventional and conservative, really.

But yes, sure, rubbing my evil, radical hands with glee

And yes, I am "disgusting", and yet it's my side who is dishing out malicious abuse to other women

That's really patronising. I am 63 and I agree with her. And I have been a feminist, in all likelihood, longer than you have been alive. I respect your right to a differing opinion, but believe you are wrong as strongly as you believe you are right. Age has nothing to do with it. Of course, I guess that when you have lived as long as I have, it's always possible that you will grow up too!

Sometimes age doesn't come with experience I suppose. Most of us felt much differently as young women and our views changed as we aged, experienced more of the sexism and misogyny of the world, and realised how men (in general) really view us, and realised dick-pandering doesn't do us any good. For some that realisation can take longer, or may never come, conversely, some young women realise it long before the norm.

The posters talking about being happy with mixed changing rooms - I'm assuming you're not talking about communal changing rooms? I'm not sure I've ever met a woman who would be happy changing into a swimming cossie in a room full of naked blokes...

In any case it doesn't matter if you are, as a previous poster said - you can't consent on behalf of the rest of us.

@shindiggery

it's about having the choice

It's about not becoming abusive with the vengeful vitriol from some posters on this thread who would clearly rub their hands with glee if it ever came to pass that a trans rights supporter was assaulted in these circumstances. Disgusting.

Pointing out facts is not abuse and vitriol.

Calling people disgusting because you don’t like them pointing out facts, statistics or reality simply tells me that you have no counter argument and have to resort to trying to shame people into shutting up. The problem with that approach is that most people on here can see right through what is a centuries-old tactic used to try to stop women sticking up for themselves.

I note that you have not engaged with any of the points about the % of transwomen prisoners who are sexual offenders or the increased risk to women of mixed sex changing rooms, both of which are documented. Instead you accuse feminists of being abusers. Yet again we seen the clear alignment of TRAs and MRAs.

I think there are multiple issues really.

How do we define trans? In my mind it is somebody who lives full time as the opposite gender and is actively having treatment. But other people's definitions differ. And the law isn't clear enough either, which means the door is open for it to be abused.

Another issue is that whilst I personally don't care about mixed gender settings, or male doctors or whatever, lots of people do. So choice should prevail. With regard prisons, the larger the trans prison population becomes, the easier it is to manage really. Either way there is a risk whether it to a female population or themselves so its about which risk is easier to manage.

But I don't think anybody should be forcing their views on others. Your daughter has her own opinions, formed by her own experiences of the world. She may change her mind and she may not. Either way, your opinion is no more valid than hers.

I am quite shocked that it seems all younger people seem to have the opposite opinion. I 'discovered' the extent of the situation last year. It depressed me greatly for a while. I can only assume the younger generation has been worked on. It's a cult.

Whenever I read these threads I am sadly reminded of growing up in the 80s when gay rights were a big thing. Many people said it would be dangerous to allow lesbians into girls changing rooms - that they didn’t want to get changed with ‘them’. Those bigoted views have happily mostly passed now, and we don’t hold them to be acceptable.

The fact is that trans people just want to live their lives - a vanishingly small proportion of an already small population may commit a sexual offence, but it’s not the reason that people decide to transition. The transition process it incredibly difficult and no one puts themselves through that without really truly believing they will be happier as the other gender. No one does that on a whim to be able to access women’s spaces.

Honestly the vitriol this issue stirs up on MN is far out of proportion to the actual size of the issue in real life.

Let your daughter hold her views, you are free to hold yours, but not to partake in hate speech in the process of holding those views.

A lot of people claiming to be transgender do not transition in anyway at all. Men, who have beards are claiming to be women. Male rapists who claim to be women are being placed in female prisons and rape shelters. The movement is being abused by abusers.

@FrenchFancie

Whenever I read these threads I am sadly reminded of growing up in the 80s when gay rights were a big thing. Many people said it would be dangerous to allow lesbians into girls changing rooms - that they didn’t want to get changed with ‘them’. Those bigoted views have happily mostly passed now, and we don’t hold them to be acceptable.

The fact is that trans people just want to live their lives - a vanishingly small proportion of an already small population may commit a sexual offence, but it’s not the reason that people decide to transition. The transition process it incredibly difficult and no one puts themselves through that without really truly believing they will be happier as the other gender. No one does that on a whim to be able to access women’s spaces.

Honestly the vitriol this issue stirs up on MN is far out of proportion to the actual size of the issue in real life.

Let your daughter hold her views, you are free to hold yours, but not to partake in hate speech in the process of holding those views.

Not wanting to share a changing room with a lesbian is clearly bigotry, but it wasn't on the basis of fear or lack of safety, so your analogy is incorrect.

Whereas allowing biological men the right to share female only spaces will put women's safety at risk. Trans women commit crime at the same rates as any other biological men; so it's not bigotry to say women are put at risk by the inclusion of trans women in their spaces. Take a look at the 'it never happens' thread in Feminism chat.

Whenever I read these threads I am sadly reminded of growing up in the 80s when gay rights were a big thing. Many people said it would be dangerous to allow lesbians into girls changing rooms - that they didn’t want to get changed with ‘them’. Those bigoted views have happily mostly passed now, and we don’t hold them to be acceptable.

You realise that you have just compared lesbians to males?

And you think we are bigoted?

What is hate speech? Some would define it as the simple expression of the views that we hold.

FrenchFancie that is the narrative we are fed, which massively oversimplifies and glossed over a great deal. The more I learn about this issue and how it is actually playing out on the ground, the further I move from that viewpoint. There are so many amazing professional women on MN who seriously know their onions on this - they're not just being silly.