Mother -daughter terf v transgender defender

[Happylittlethoughts]

I know there is no answer here. I just feel very sad . On the topic of Biden being a good move for the USA, I commented "Unless you are a woman- or mensrtruator"
Well my daughter and I clash over TERF - versus Transgender defender. She stormed out and I feel very sad . We are very close except for this issue so I guess it jars a bit more . I feel horrified she will let Women's Rights be eroded this way. I guess its just a no go area, but I feel despised in that moment for stating my view.

My two teenage dds are similar. They think I'm uninformed and bigoted when it comes to feminism.

I'm just waiting it out now.

I used to have the sane clash with my DH... but he’s changed his views, which makes it much easier. He tried to ban me from talking about it for a while and could not see why I was desperately upset about it.

It's fine. She can wait until she's in a gym getting undressed next to some 6 foot "woman" with "her" dick out or goes for a smear test and has the speculum administered by a trans woman and maybe then she'll start to come to her senses.

With vitriol like this around, I think it's far more likely she'll be traumatised by someone like you.

My DDs are only 5 and 7mo but I'm already terrified of this happening with us. I hope by the time they're older things will have changed.

I don't know how I'd be able to bite my tongue!

@Binglebong

If you want to continue discussing her talk about how vulnerable female prisoners usually are, the stats on how many are victims of sexual assaults etc. When you've got her feeling for them ask if they should be locked up with convicted rapists.

The thing is you are conflating trans women with sexual predators. Most of the objections to recognising trans women as women boil down to this assumption.

It's the modern equivalent of saying "gay men are a risk to children" (because clearly they are peadophiles).

Neither is acceptable or correct.

It doesn't negate women's experience of sexual assault/rape/harassment. It doesn't mean that trans women shouldn't have access to female spaces. The question is how we prevent sexual predators being able to act upon their desires at the expense of others.

Opinions are changing. Refusing to engage with the real issue (which is much trickier) isn't going to prevent those changes happening.

You've said your piece, she's said her piece. Don't keep poking at it.

I have this same class with my aunt - I'm liberal in my views, she's very conservative - and really it's best to not discuss it. I know I'm not going to be swayed by her ilk and she feels the same way about my 'side' and their arguments.

Whoops - clash, not class! Auto correct strikes again.

She stormed out because she cannot articulate an argument with any logical underpinning. The whole ideology depends on shutting down discussion and name-calling.

She probably stormed out because her mother has a one track mind to the point she cannot simply acknowledge that Biden is a better alternative to Trump by light years which would be hugely disappointing to any right minded woman. Also that her mother would choose a highly unnecessary moment to make a highly provocative dig, knowing her daughter's views. This isn't about the trans issue, it's about mother daughter tensions and a lapse in good judgement as a parent. You may wish to pick this battle against your daughter's right to make her own mind but it would be wise to choose your moments unless your only objective is to be provocative. Really, I'm not sure who is playing the 'daughter' role here.

I don't think you have much to gain by pushing the subject. You've both made your views clear. Is it really worth losing her over?

She stormed out because she cannot articulate an argument with any logical underpinning. The whole ideology depends on shutting down discussion and name-calling.

this

as amply demonstrated by userOne above who seems to think women being locked up with rapists is completely fine because men can become women.

the cognitive dissonance must be painful

The thing is you are conflating trans women with sexual predators. Most of the objections to recognising trans women as women boil down to this assumption.

Half of the transwomen in prison are there because they have committed sexual offences. That is much higher than the male prison population, proportionally.

So either transwomen actually are more likely to be sexual predators than male prisoners, or sexual predators are assuming this identity to try to access the female estate.

Either way, that is not something that you should be telling women that the need to accept.

My DD and I clashed over this several years ago. We had several tense discussions and agreed to differ. Recently she told me that she completely understood the issues - the abuse hurled at JKR was key. She's matured and understands the threat that some men pose.

There's a reason lobby groups have relentlessly targeted children and education - it's easier to sell fantasies as facts to the young and inexperienced. Along with threats of social exclusion and worse for non compliance, no wonder so many of the young are terrified of critical thinking. As parents it's hard watching our children be gaslighted like this - think we have to be smart in our responses. Be clear but brief about our views and maybe spend energies in tackling the misinformation that's being peddled at children in schools and online. That's where the problems stem from.

The thing is you are conflating trans women with sexual predators. Most of the objections to recognising trans women as women boil down to this assumption.
So should a transwoman who is a convicted sexual predator be sent to a men's prison or a women's prison? There are an increasing number of them so it's a real problem.

I do not think that transwomen are all sexual predators any more than I think that men are all sexual predators.
Almost without exception, sexual predators are male and it is not possible to identify which males pose a risk to women, so we protect women by providing them with certain rights and protected spaces.
Those rights and protected spaces are being removed. Rapists are being allowed to identify as women by Police.

🤣Shindiggery . Like you know us!

When I was a teenager this wasn’t a big topic but I’m sure I would have been as woke as they come back then. Most teenagers sort of err that side don’t they?

I always called myself a feminist but only as an adult has it been something I’ve thought more about, particularly after having children although not only that.

Personally I would drop the subject and try and have it not come up again with your DD. She may come over to your viewpoint when she’s older and has a different perspective. Until that point just have it as something you agree to not really discuss.

It’s a huge shame that it seems the Olympics will be deferred again. I think it would have been a wake up call for many young women - and possibly helped to stem the tide - seeing the travesty that women’s sport is becoming.

The thing is you are conflating trans women with sexual predators. Most of the objections to recognising trans women as women boil down to this assumption.

No, I'm talking about the women who are currently and have previously been locked up with rapists. I'm certainly not saying all transwomen are rapists but nor am I going to pretend this abuse is not happening.

Well your daughter does know you and things seem a bit toxic so 🤔

I had very similar views to your daughter. Since having a daughter myself, my views have changed and are more along the lines of @UserOne now. In normal circumstances I am willing to defend my beliefs, however I am unable to do so with my mum! My mum is not a feminist at all, in any sense if the word. The other day she called me up and said she had watched Ru Pauls drag race and couldn't believe it because the men are bitchier than women... 🙄 This made my blood boil! But she is my mum, she is the one person I don't feel able to argue with. Especially as she is aware of my views, so it felt deliberately inflammatory and hurt my feelings tbh. I wonder if the reason that your daughter stormed out is similar to this!

I'm sad that you had the argument and your DD has the views she has. Please do not shut down all discussion on this, and please frame this as wanting to protect women.

@NotYourReindeer

I'm not sure I've ever known a feminist who is concerned about the erosion or Women's Rights to use an insult to refer to their belief. TERF is used primarily by people with the opposing view, as an insult.

Sorry slightly8 confused,

Are you saying that Feminists never refer to themselves using an insulting term?
or
That they never use insulting terms to describe others?

If its the first fair enough, if it the second then you are completely wrong.

@ConspiracyOfOne

It's fine. She can wait until she's in a gym getting undressed next to some 6 foot "woman" with "her" dick out or goes for a smear test and has the speculum administered by a trans woman and maybe then she'll start to come to her senses.

This will become an every day occurrence that will affect so many women.

What exactly is wrong with having a smear test done by a trans woman or mixed sex/gender changing rooms? You do realise some people genuinely don’t have a problem with this? I don’t think anyone would argue there isn’t an issue with sex offenders in women’s prisons and this should be dealt with accordingly, but it’s hardly comparable to a gym or a public toilet is it.

Trump facilitated banning and rolling back abortion, talked openly about sexually assaulting women, admitted a rapist to the Supreme Court, talked about his own daughter in a sleazy, sexual manner... I could go on. How exactly was he an ally to women? It’s delusional to think his stance on trans people was because he cared about women.

Biden sexually assaults women and pretends he doesn't. He's what my mum would call handsy.

Biden is better than trump but only marginally. America has just swapped a mentally ill megalomaniac for a creepy misogynist.

@TedMullins women and girls are at far greater risk in mixed sex changing rooms, regardless of the trans issue. Figures show far greater number of assaults there. It's not a solution.

As for the smear test... Look, I think for me this is where the difference between theory and reality comes in. Imagine you request a female practitioner, and in comes a burly six footer with an Adam's apple, asking you to remove your knickers and open wide. Honestly, how do you think most women are going to feel in the moment? Whose needs are more important in this situation?

Obviously some women might be perfectly happy to have their smear test done by anyone, male, female, trans, whatever. I've certainly had plenty of gynaecological procedures done by male doctors (sometimes a team of them!) and I didn't mind.

But some women, for all sorts of reasons, do mind.

There was a to-do in Scotland recently about intimate exams for rape survivors. The government initially said they could only request it to be done by someone of a specific gender, not sex. An MSP called Johann Lamont successfully argued to change the wording as follows: for the word gender, substitute sex. That's a good example to look up to read about the arguments either way.