Can you just ignore a will?

[Willadvice2021]

Help me understand this situation.

Adam, his brother and their cousin. Will call them Adam , Ben and Craig for the use of this situation.

Adam, Ben and Craig both live near their dad/uncle, like two/three streets away. Ben has always had an on/off relationship with his parents. Mostly off. Declaring them all dead to him fairly regularly over the years. Ben hates Craig, no real reason, I think he dislikes the fact Craig is so involved and included like another son.. Craig’s parents died many years ago.

A few years ago Ben had a bust up with everyone over Craig being there. He hit his mother causing her a split lip and brushing (she was very elderly) and a few days later when Adam tried to speak with him he pushed him and he fell and injured his head and shoulder against the wall. Ben said everyone was dead to him and walked out. Within days their mum had died, Ben was reached out to invited to the funeral but refused to attend or correspond with anyone. When Adam reached out he sent him a message, Ben replied he wanted no contact from the family and that was that. Ben has never been close with his father and made no attempt to contact him for several years.

Ben was in ill health before this happened and Adam and Craig were having to go in several times to a day to help him with self care, shopping, washing etc. After the death of their mother the situation meant that the care was significantly increased, Adam had to take early retirement and Craig reduced his hours to be able to help. Both were called all day and night and back. Adam in particular struggled a lot with the amount of burden and is having counselling. It was very difficult

At some point a few years back their dad rewrote his will with a solicitor. He was of sound mind right in until the end but his health was very poor. He decided to include Craig into the will and gave him and Ben both 25% and the remaining 50% to Adam. He wanted to write Ben out completely but Adam said he shouldn’t do that.

Their dad died. Ben was informed but again didn’t attend the funeral or make any attempt to contact. It has been years since he saw his dad.

Now Ben is contesting the will and asking Adam to take Craig out and just split it 50/50 between them. He has made several other additional requests for specific high value items. I’m surprised this is even the option. He says he has sought legal advice but I can’t understand how the can decide to ignore/bypass the will?

Added: There isn’t much to inherit, no money and house is worth probably 100,000.

Adam should tell Ben to back off or he'll report the potentially fatal assault on his mother to the police with Craig as a witness.

Ben hasn’t a legal leg to stand on. Put it in the hands of a solicitor and stop worrying about who did what to whom. It’s completely irrelevant to the case.

As I see it any legal fees come out of the estate
Adam as e ecutor gets to do all the grunt work and he keeps his 50 per cent and Ben and Craig get their 25 per cent

I can’t see how he can stop probable
What a piece of work Ben is

Oh and any taxes and funeral costs are deducted from estate before the money is divided

Also don't worry about the Caveat that Ben has placed with the registry. He can't hold up probate indefinitely. The Probate Registry won't allow that. If he wants to challenge the provisions in the will a caveat is completely the wrong method. Caveats are for challenging the validity of the will, not the content. He's been poorly advised it seems. The solicitor acting for Adam will soon satisfy the probate registry of the Will's validity (which is why Wills should be professionally drafted!) and the Grant will be issued. However, Ben may attempt a claim under the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975 for a greater share. This is where it becomes expensive to fight.

Forgive me as this has probably already been mentioned, but you can vary a will if all the beneficiaries agree. There will be some costs involved, but it can be done.

Doobigetta at the inquests & hearings Tony Bland wasn't included in the number who had died at Hillsborough because he had survived a year & a day afterwards, his name was included in the names on the memorials. The court case was to have life support withdrawn to allow him to die because he was so badly injured there was no chance of recovery or quality of life.

Thanks all. Really helpful advice.

I was just shocked at the idea that Ben had requested they settle it out of court and cut Craig out. I didn't understand how it could even happen. This has really helped clear things up.

I wanted to include details to explain why the change in the will, I think it makes it much more straight forward if those details are removed. Thanks.

I was just shocked at the idea that Ben had requested they settle it out of court and cut Craig out.

Ben is phenomenally entitled, isn't he? Settling out of court normally applies when there is a legitimate case/disagreement between two parties - you can't just decide that you want something that was never yours and then ask to 'settle' out of court. What actually is there to settle?!

If I was visiting my local Mercedes dealership and slipped on a big slick of spilt oil on the forecourt, and was unable to work for a month, I might well end up settling with them out of court. However, if I saw a car I wanted priced at £60K, but informed them that I wanted to only pay them £20K for it - and then demanded that we 'settle out of court' when they refused - I would be a complete idiot and would get nowhere, no matter how big a tantrum I threw and 'expert' relatives with a D in GCSE Law I claimed to have.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

I was just shocked at the idea that Ben had requested they settle it out of court and cut Craig out.

Ben is phenomenally entitled, isn't he? Settling out of court normally applies when there is a legitimate case/disagreement between two parties - you can't just decide that you want something that was never yours and then ask to 'settle' out of court. What actually is there to settle?!

If I was visiting my local Mercedes dealership and slipped on a big slick of spilt oil on the forecourt, and was unable to work for a month, I might well end up settling with them out of court. However, if I saw a car I wanted priced at £60K, but informed them that I wanted to only pay them £20K for it - and then demanded that we 'settle out of court' when they refused - I would be a complete idiot and would get nowhere, no matter how big a tantrum I threw and 'expert' relatives with a D in GCSE Law I claimed to have.

Your totally right.

Although daughter actually passed the bar but she never secured an internship. She works in an area of law but not as a lawyer. I don't have any contact with her so not really sure what's she doing.

But yes, I guess it's just Ben doing being Ben. He never cares about the consequences and he really hates Craig. It's so odd, there is no real reason for the issues between them. But he always said Craig was wiggling his way into the will and Craig already had inheritance from his own parents, but then Craig was the there every day and Ben hasn't even send a card or made a phone call in years.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to disparage his daughter's legal qualifications or experience, but despite Ben's apparent beliefs, she clearly doesn't have the same knowledge as the qualified, experienced legal professionals in this specific area of the law who have actually been handling this case - I was meaning to cast aspersions on Ben's idea that one person who has done law is essentially equal in authority to another without any variation.

Maybe that's part of his mindset and what's making him believe this way, though: one son is exactly the same as another when it comes to inheritance rights and a nephew, who is not a son, therefore deserves no inheritance rights from somebody else's parents. Irrespective of whether the nephew behaved with great love and care towards his aunt and uncle to the extent that he was effectively like a son; whereas the actual son treated those same people with hatred, disdain and violence.

Does Ben actually know that his father (quite reasonably) wanted to exclude him entirely from the will? Before Adam talked him out of it, was he planning on giving Adam and Craig 50/50 or 75/25?

I think a large part of Ben's disgraceful and ridiculous belief that Craig was only showing great kindness stems from the fact that it's something that he would have done himself, had their positions been reversed - well, maybe would have thought of doing in order to gain but not have ever cared to actually do. People with extremely nasty and selfish perspectives in life tend to struggle with the idea that other people are not like them. They can accept that decent people are (in their eyes) stupid doormats, ripe to be exploited; but when they see them indirectly reaping any rewards for living their lives with kindness and compassion to others (albeit totally unexpected and unsolicited), they can only suspect that something must be afoot and that their pleasant personality is all a sham with ulterior motives.

There is a small silver lining in that Ben wasn't smart enough to play the long game and hide his true colours before his parents died. If he had, he could have ended up a co-executor of the will (or even sole executor, if he'd spun a yarn about being better placed to do it and/or wanting to spare Adam the great effort) - that would have been a nightmare for everybody.

With hindsight, it's a shame that the will wasn't made to leave 49.99999999% each to Adam and Craig and then £1 to Ben - for no other purpose than to make it plainly evident that Ben hadn't simply been overlooked and was indeed being deliberately acknowledged in the will to more than the extent that he deserved.

Adam ought to have a copy of the will.

He can mostly ignore Ben, who can spend a few quid trying to contest a pretty watertight will and solid reasons as to why his dad didn’t put him in the will. Surely no court in the land will be sympathetic to a bully who smacked up his frail elderly mum??

www.fsp-law.com/guide-to-challenging-wills/

Gives you more info but I am not advising using this solicitor.
It is simply well set out.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to disparage his daughter's legal qualifications or experience, but despite Ben's apparent beliefs, she clearly doesn't have the same knowledge as the qualified, experienced legal professionals in this specific area of the law who have actually been handling this case - I was meaning to cast aspersions on Ben's idea that one person who has done law is essentially equal in authority to another without any variation.

Maybe that's part of his mindset and what's making him believe this way, though: one son is exactly the same as another when it comes to inheritance rights and a nephew, who is not a son, therefore deserves no inheritance rights from somebody else's parents. Irrespective of whether the nephew behaved with great love and care towards his aunt and uncle to the extent that he was effectively like a son; whereas the actual son treated those same people with hatred, disdain and violence.

Does Ben actually know that his father (quite reasonably) wanted to exclude him entirely from the will? Before Adam talked him out of it, was he planning on giving Adam and Craig 50/50 or 75/25?

I think a large part of Ben's disgraceful and ridiculous belief that Craig was only showing great kindness stems from the fact that it's something that he would have done himself, had their positions been reversed - well, maybe would have thought of doing in order to gain but not have ever cared to actually do. People with extremely nasty and selfish perspectives in life tend to struggle with the idea that other people are not like them. They can accept that decent people are (in their eyes) stupid doormats, ripe to be exploited; but when they see them indirectly reaping any rewards for living their lives with kindness and compassion to others (albeit totally unexpected and unsolicited), they can only suspect that something must be afoot and that their pleasant personality is all a sham with ulterior motives.

There is a small silver lining in that Ben wasn't smart enough to play the long game and hide his true colours before his parents died. If he had, he could have ended up a co-executor of the will (or even sole executor, if he'd spun a yarn about being better placed to do it and/or wanting to spare Adam the great effort) - that would have been a nightmare for everybody.

With hindsight, it's a shame that the will wasn't made to leave 49.99999999% each to Adam and Craig and then £1 to Ben - for no other purpose than to make it plainly evident that Ben hadn't simply been overlooked and was indeed being deliberately acknowledged in the will to more than the extent that he deserved.

Yes, I think you have nailed it completely. Ben really can't see beyond his own world. As you can tell, people have tolerated his behaviour for his entire life until about 4 years ago. After the incident where he hit their mum Adam went to hear it from his perspective, as I said before, the mothers story wasn't consistent and he lost it and attacked Adam. Ben sent a email to Adam and just said they were all dead to him and they he wanted no further contact.

Usually they all let him clam down and start mending bridges, but this time, no one did. I think everyone expected Ben to calm down and make some contact, but he never did. Not a card for his Dads birthday or anything like that. The others have been busy with looking after their Dad who didn't want contact with Ben either after not attending the funeral.

@cabbageking

www.fsp-law.com/guide-to-challenging-wills/

Gives you more info but I am not advising using this solicitor.
It is simply well set out.

I guess he could try to claim

	Want of Knowledge and Approval: A testator must have knowledge and approval of the contents of a will. In addition if a person who benefits significantly has been involved in the execution of a will, a suspicion “arises in the mind of the Court” about their role. If this cannot be rebutted the will may be declared invalid.

	Undue influence: If a person has made a will because they have been forced or co-erced into making it by another (who usually stands to benefit as a result) the will may be set aside on grounds of undue influence. Similarly, if the will has been produced by “fraudulent calumny” on the part of a beneficiary to achieve the exclusion of others, it may be set aside.

As in, the executor is the main beneficiary and Craig and Adam were there caring for him so it could be argued they may have exerted pressure to change the will.

Will a solicitors testimony be enough? The point is they did influence it, they influenced Ben being put back into the will.

They can't contest its validity I don't think, the will was with the solicitor so can't have been tampered with, there was a copy but the original was with the solicitor.

I guess the fact of the assault and the fact he didn't attend any of the funerals shows why the will was changed though.

The solicitor asked Adam to respond to Ben's letter but send it to him, with a little background etc. It's apparently 9 pages long and it sounds like Adam has used it to unburden all the years of pain and stress. He wrote all about the assaults etc and links evidence in nursing records etc. I only heard a little bit but I'm hoping the solicitor really reins it back. Craig says he will look at a solicitor too, waiting to hear what happens with Adam first but I strongly advised he get his own representation, so hopefully he will sort that ASAP.

Certainly be interesting to hear how the solicitor responds. Thank you to everyone who contributed and advised.

Solicitor been in touch as Adam taking so long to get back in touch. He's having a meeting tomorrow.

Ben writing letters making demands and insisting they don't go the legal routine and that Adam had made assurances that he would see him alright, after a previous falling out with their late parents. Adam doesn't recall this conversation, but not sure it is relevant anyway after the assault and no contact. Like I said previously. Ben was always falling out with his parents and cutting contact but he never sustained a long distance from Adam, this time was different. Ben cut off contact with Adam and Adam's family as well as the rest of the family.

Solicitor and Adam are having a meeting tomorrow, Craig has contacted a solicitor too. They said to wait and see what comes of this with Adam first but least he has someone lined up if Adam were to turn on him, which won't happen but still good idea to have.

Adam has just got himself in a state and been going through all paper work to prove things. Which just seems over the top really. Like others have said the details don't matter at this point, so he's just making work for himself.

It's natural to want to respond to and disprove all the mad accusations. I've been in that situation and gotten worked up about it. In hindsight the best thing really is to not say much - hopefully the sol can be concise and clear. Could this prove expensive with the solicitors? How realistic is it for them both to ignore Ben, particularly if he doesn't want to "go the legal route"?
Are there grounds for harassment?

Good questions, no idea.Hopefully Adam will get more clarity tomorrow and I think regardless of the costs, which I assume come from the estate anyway, Adam needs this as clearly he's not able to cope with the stress of dealing with it himself. Don't think Craig and him are really that close. Especially since their Dad died as they aren't friends as such, they get along fine but just different people. Adam very churchy and reserved and Craig much more outgoing and loud.

Solicitor seems really good from what they reported back to me. Adam has been told what to write and basically just answer the points and ask what bases they are challenging the will. Craig doesn't need a solicitor at this point apparently, they said wait to see what comes of this. Sounds like it is going to cost thousands but that will come from the estate. Been told to not offer Ben anything.

It's still crap that they have to spend thousands on this.

@MindGrapes

It's still crap that they have to spend thousands on this.

Yes, I agree but Ben said they would be personally liable which I disagreed with but was worried for them. I think Ben wants drain the estate, he would rather have nothing than Craig get a penny.

Just thought I would update for those interested. Ben has been communicating under prejudice (as per costs) but refusing to drop the caveat. He says that he wants half and will fight for it. He says that Adam made agreements with him in a verbal contact that he would see him alright if this happened and that Adam is breaking his word by not giving him his share of the inheritance. He also says Adams wife said the same and to his wife and that they will sue them for “everything” if he doesn’t sign to give them this money.

His correspondence is all over the place saying he was in contact up until his dads death and then saying he wasn’t. He is saying his dad wasn’t of sound mind when he made the will and wants all his medical records and what’s Adam to prove that he was of sound mind. Then he is saying Adam forced him to sign it and his dad told him this.

Lots of legal threats, saying Adam will lose his house etc unless he gives him the money. He just bringing up stuff his mother said about items years ago, when they were kids about them having, most of which has been sold since my his parents.

I probably should add Ben earns well in excess of 70k and his wife works too in a civil service role. They change their cars every two years and have lots of exotic holidays, no mortgage etc. So it’s not he’s desperate for money or anything.

He’s made a huge deal about the ashes! Which is bonkers given he didn’t even attend the funerals. He only wants his mothers ashes, not his fathers, and keeps bring up things they wanted done with the ashes. He also went and paid for a park bench in a park they all went to as a child. A “in memory of” bench and now is demanding money for that from Adam.

Craig is just staying out of it, not much he can do or say really. They all know they have proof of the dads mental competence, he even signed a DNR in hospital and was declared of sound mind then. The dad had also told all the neighbours about his will as well as telling them about the assaults on his wife and on Adam. It’s in medical notes and social work reports (as he had carers in near the end).

Adam has been told he still has time to sue for that assault. Not from the main solicitor but a family friend who is a solicitor. I think Adam is just bogged down with it all though.

I fact is I think Ben is playing with fire he isn’t prepared to use, it sounds like he can drain the estate and it’s estimated it could cost £60,000 to take this to court, although I think it may be more as that’s based on a reasonable amount of evidence and they have a lot of witnesses and it’s not exactly straight forward. However, I think of any of Ben’s actions became public in would affect his job and everyone would know. I don’t think he has much shame, I mean all the neighbours around know and are bitching about him, they all think it’s despicable they way he has acted and now is clearly showing his true colours when it comes to screwing the people who were there for his father, so don’t think he has any shame but I think of the assaults became public he would lose his job.

Anyway, that’s where things are. No real further forward other than having a solicitor in place. They are very specialised and well respected, so that’s good.

What a shame. However I'm surprised Ben has the power to cost them that much. I would have thought Adam should go ahead with everything, and just let Ben try to stop him- because he can't.

Ben put the caveat (think that's the right term) in place and so he needs to remove it, he says he will keep extending it indefinitely.

Costs will come from estate I believe, so while Ben gets less, so will everyone else. Plus Adam is having to pay out of his pocket for the house upkeep and solicitor in the meantime. He already had to retire early to look after his Dad so was surviving on savings, so that's stressful for him.

Adam offered to double what Ben is given in the will from his own pocket so that he can carry on, even though it leaves him a lot worse off. But Ben rejected that as he wants Craig out of the will too.

Seems Ben is just doing what always has, makes us all wonder how miserable his wife must be, surely she can see what is happening and he must treat her that way too.