Tavistoc Clinic

[saracorona]

Bad day for the Tavistoc Clinic and Trans children. Kiera Bell took the Tavistock clinic to court because she felt that she should not have been prescribed puberty blockers at aged sixteen and felt pressured to go ahead with the transition which she now regrets.

She said she was extremely upset. She 's not the only one but not for the same reasons. The report went onto to state that less than one per cent of young people regretted transitioning.

I get upset when I remember a suicidal young man who was strapping six footer at 14 years being desperate because he was becoming his worst nightmare. I also remember at a family party when he was three, he sneaked off and put on his cousins snow white dress, appeared and called himself a girls name. We laughed and thought he was messing. I remember her at aged twelve going to school dressed completely as a girl and no one knew until the school rang her mother because a nigh on riot had broke out. Her mother thanked God for the Tavistock every day for the years of support because they kept her child alive. My niece is very happy with her breasts and genitals. She wasn't so happy at the cost of laser hair removal but we all chipped in. She didn't want the added work for shaving the Adams apple but mostly she hates her height. But her puberty was allowed to run it course by virtue of her age, hormone blockers aren't prescribed to under 16 year old. Sad day for a lot of young people!

I cannot agree it it is a sad day.
Medically transition like this at a young age destroys that child’s ability to have children later. They are too young to make this decision.
They are too young to decide if they can get married without their parents consent, to drink. A whole host of other things. But they were allowed to do this.
It would be far kinder to help them accept who they are rather than give drugs to change themselves into something that biologically will never be the reality of what they say they want.
Therapy is what they need at this age as well as time and support.

Personally, I believe history will judge us harshly for allowing children under the age of informed consent to undergo medical (at times irreversible) procedures that will affect them all their lives.

I’m not sure what part of “children under 16 who want to undergo gender reassignment must demonstrate they understand the immediate and long term consequences of the process” anybody, wherever they fall on the spectrum of views toward gender identity, could argue against. If they can articulate this, they’ll be able to access their treatment.

I haven't read coverage but a person has a right to complain if they felt pressured etc. If the report found guidance was not followed then that is damaging for their reputation but I find it hard to sympathise with an institution.

I dont understand why people would argue informed consent is not needed for anything really.

I'm glad your niece is happy following transition.

Did you also see in the report that the huge increase in referrals to the GIDS clinic at the Tavistock over the last decade have come from natal females with autistic spectrum disorders?

unlicensed puberty blockers are not the correct form of support for young women with autism, it has long been recognised that as a group they particularly struggle with puberty and the changes it brings.

There has to be proper, robust, evidence based procedures in place to ensure that permanent damage isn't caused to young people who pre-puberty cannot possibly have a proper concept of the impact it will have on their future relationships, reproductive ability, the development of their sexual organs and their ability to have and enjoy sex with anyone in the future as adults.

I can only comment on my families experience and my nieces friends who transitioned. She believes that she should've been helped earlier and that her teenage years were miserable because the massive changes were definitely very male and then she developed small breasts without hormones. Anyway back to the Tavistock. It was made clear to her that transitioning was no easy ride on any level. At the same time she chose to have her sperm frozen. She has always wanted to be a mother, she said she would love to carry a child but that really is in the world of fantasy, She thinks she's lucky as it is but still would've have preferred transitioning earlier. On another note, in chat rooms, support groups and the odd meet ups she did comment that there was a significant minority that she felt were on a spectrum. Complicated subject!

OP I don't want to attack you. But you describe yourself how you laughed at your niece and how they were the victim of severe bullying at school. I don't understand why you wouldn't acknowledge the role those events played in their desire to be known as a woman.

That's okay, I don't mind. Yes I laughed at the three yo dressed up because I got it wrong, i thought she was playing. Cross dressing in little ones is a normally just a game, done briefly and a bit of a giggle but she was serious. We were mostly clueless and all of different opinions and remain so. Absolutely she was targeted by bullies and there was much worse things that happened to others.
The fact that she wasn't happy with her gender was confusing for us enough but the reaction of others was at times breathtaking and downright abusive and no one needed it. To a level she understands people don't like it but they can basically keep their opinions to themselves, she gets fed up constantly explaining but goes along with it, but when they sneer and start chatting to the air about how wrong they think it is, that annoys but others get aggressive and rant, and that sticks for a while. Yes life may have been so much easier if she had kept her desires to herself and just buckled under or maybe not!

But I hate dresses, doesn't make me a man

My 3 year old tells me regularly he's a cat and licks his arms. Clearly he's being deadly serious about how he identifies. Should I see if Tavistock will recommend surgically attaching a tail, OP? He really wants to birth kittens some day.

her sperm

The Tavistock clinic has a long and quite frightening history.

I understand your opinion now, but if in 10 years your niece announces that actually, they regret their transition, will you feel the same?

I personally don't understand how a young teen isn't old enough to understand the impact of alcohol / tobacco / politics / sex so they can't participate in them legally but people genuinely feel a child can decide to start a treatment path that will effect them forever.

FWIW, my cousin used to borrow my dresses when we were small, he would wear make up and choose female characters in any games. He didn't 'grow out' of it and I think if he had been referred to a 'gender dysmorphia clinic' he would have accepted a transitioning pathway.
As an adult, he's a gay man who likes looking nice and wore girls clothes because as a child (in early 90s), his thought process was 'i fancy boys, girls are supposed to fancy boys, I must be a girl.' Nothing to do with being trans, all based on societal norms.

It's truly terrifying to me that he could have been put on a path that would have effected him physically and mentally forever purely because he was hormonal and confused as a 12 year old child.

The Tavistock clinic could not even provide basic data to support the clinical pathway they were pursuing. They failed to evidence that they were correctly screening for co-morbidities such as ASD. Puberty Blockers are no longer considered to be fully reversible by the NHS. The focus should have been on proper psychological support for children to allow them to fully explore their identity rather than offering them options which they lacked the maturity to understand.
I am not doubting your niece’s feelings, however, the judgement is about what is right for all children the Tavistock sees.

The ruling of the judicial review is here: www.judiciary.uk/judgments/r-on-the-application-of-quincy-bell-and-a-v-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-trust-and-others/

Due to the lack of evidence that these drugs are in anyway beneficial to these children, the court now requires oversight of the consent process for children who are found to be suitable candidates for them, in the hope of avoiding the life-long consequences of a child making a decision against their own best interests. That is all.

As an aside, can you please post evidence for the 1% detransitioner rate you quote, OP? Unfortunately the Tavistock hasn't been able to provide any data. 1% of a growing cohort is far too high isn't it? We should definitely be trying to protect those children too, unless they're just seen as collateral damage.

The report went onto to state that less than one per cent of young people regretted transitioning.

No, Susie Green stated this and it's bollocks. Emily Maitlis generally did a great job but I wish she'd challenged her on this.

The 1% "detransition rate" comes from a study that's not been published but Mermaids have the abstract on their website:

It's from an ADULT clinic & the study only looked at records of CURRENT clients.

They reviewed the notes from their appointments to see any mention of regret. The didn't speak to a single client, or ex client. No follow up to see if any detransitioned 10 years after leaving the clinic, 5 years, or even 1.

It's an instant-regret rate of adult clients, not a detransition rate, and fuck all to do with kids.

For Stonewall to quote this (which they do) is bad enough given it's misleading & bad science. But for Mermaids, whose remit is children & young people, this is massively disingenuous & unethical.

mermaidsuk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/charing-Cross-study-nhs.pdf

The detransition sub on reddit has over 16.5k members.

Detransition is A LOT more common than Stonewall & Mermaids would have you believe.

www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

It isn't a sad day for a lot of young people. They have been brainwashed by those who should know better. That is take a few pills and you can change sex and all will be fine. It's not that simple.

I have considerable sympathy for people who believe they are trans, who are struggling with their gender identity, other mental health issues, or do not conform to thought and behaviours currently perceived as the norm by society.
However this type of sympathy (although important) should not have been allowed to dangerously promote only one pathway for individuals experiencing these issues. Hundreds and hundreds of young people have now had their lives badly damaged by the very people who should have been helping them. Girls with ASD, gay young men, lesbians, and young people unable to cope with toxic gender roles - I feel disgusted that action has not been taken sooner. This people have been failed.

My child is trans. I am fully accepting, supportive and love my child more than life. I have witnessed and been part of the struggles my child has endured.

Despite everything we have been through, and it has been a lot, I don't think any child should be able to get themselves sterilised. And I find it horrifying that these blockers are being touted as ' thinking time'.

I'm glad your niece had a good experience. This isn't the case for every child. There are massive problems with the system. These needed to be highlighted.

I think that in a few years' time, the use of puberty blockers will be an absolute scandal.

I am so relieved for this result.

The report went onto to state that less than one per cent of young people regretted transitioning.

Wait. And. See.

would be my response to that.

We haven't seen the tip of the iceberg.

@YoniAndGuy

I think that in a few years' time, the use of puberty blockers will be an absolute scandal.

I am so relieved for this result.

The report went onto to state that less than one per cent of young people regretted transitioning.

Wait. And. See.

would be my response to that.

We haven't seen the tip of the iceberg.

The 1% stat isn't about children and it's not even a detransition rate. It's propaganda spread by Stonewall and Mermaids to make it sound like transing kids is no big deal and they really need to be challenged on it.

(See my previous post for more detail).

Dr Elizabeth can Horn of the Tavistock's GIDS used the 1% figure in her interview with Emily Maitliss in November 2019. She was talking about 'our population', presumably where she works.

Van Horn however then went on to say (paraphrasing here) that she didn't have the follow-up data for the 18+ patients.

She said anyone who was unhappy should 'see their GP' and ask for a referral to a different clinic, ie an adult one.

The Tavistockian attitude to proper data collection is, to quote the High Court judges, surprising.