What do you think is worse to teach, tired children or hungry children?

[MrsKoala]

Just that really, I’m musing about breakfast particularly.

My dc (8,6 & 4) don’t like breakfast any earlier than an hour and a half after they have woken up, preferably 2.

If I woke them that early we’d all have to be up at 6am and lose 2 hours sleep (they are night owls so don’t go to bed till 10-11pm so need it).

I have always veered to the side of as much sleep as possible and they can just eat at lunch. But I’ve been reading that children who don’t have breakfast are further behind in school. But I’m wondering if the extra sleep would make up for that concentration?

Do you think kids are better tired or hungry? From a learning point of view. (That’s assuming the children are hungry I suppose - mine say they aren’t till 11ish anyway and the younger 2 get offered fruit snacks at 10am). Can they suffer from hunger without feeling hungry?

They need to get used to having breakfast as soon as they get up and before they go to school.

Hunger at school will contribute to their tiredness, teachers will notice and you'll be asked gently at parents' evenings how come they're not having breakfast before school.

I notice that they flag around breaktime because they're in need of a ten minute relaxation moment and a quick snack. The ones who don't have breakfast tend to be like that from the start.

I think bedtime is too late if you dont have time in the morning to give them breakfast without their losing essential sleep time. I guess though you could have a grab and go breakfast, like breakfast bars?

I think hungry children would be harder to teach.
I would get them to sleep earlier a 10-11pm bedtime is far too late for kids their ages.
With the darker nights this will be easier for you to put in place.
An earlier start in the morning to eat and get ready for the day is better imo.

I was going to suggest a cereal bar in the car too but going to bed earlier would probably be better if that can be organised.

To answer the question: As a teacher you don't always know which children are hungry unless they are stealing from other children's lunch boxes (it happens) but if they are falling asleep in front of you it is more obvious.

I've just noticed the time they are going to be - too late imo. If they got used to getting up earlier surely they'd get tired earlier too.

I think you need to work on bringing bedtime earlier so they wake up earlier and eat breakfast.

A 4 year old who presumably eats their tea at 4-5pm not eating again until snack time the next day is definitely going to be struggling to focus on what they should be learning, even if they say they aren't hungry.

That’s interesting about the teachers saying something. I’ve got my parent consultation with the older 2 teachers today I will ask if they’ve noticed anything.

Sadly I can’t get them to bed any earlier, I’ve wasted years trying. Only thing which helped was 3 months of melatonin. They simply won’t eat in the morning either, we’ve also spent years trying various foods etc. So it appears to be a choice sleep or eat. Which is why I was wondering.

Thanks for your thoughts.

If you’re putting them to bed at 10-11pm I expect they’re both tired and hungry!

NHS guidance on sleep here: www.nhs.uk/live-well/sleep-and-tiredness/how-much-sleep-do-kids-need/

I would be putting the kids to bed at 7, 7.30 and 8pm respectively. I expect they’re not hungry until 11am as that’s 12 hours after bedtime - if you get them to bed early you’ll shift their body clocks so they are able to eat breakfast at a usual time.

Honestly I'm not a breakfast person either.

But their bed time is a bit late. Tiredness stops you feeling hungry as u just feel kinda sick, I think if you got them to hed earlier then they might be hungry when they woke up. Or manage a breakfast cereal bar or something equally portable like a sausage bagel or whatever ..

Sorry OP, posts crossed and I missed the fact you couldn’t get them to bed earlier - I guess you just need to do what works

Their daily meals are (10 am snack at pre school for the 4yo usual lay wrapsbagels and fruit) lunch at 11.45. Snack at 3pm. Dinner at 5pm. Bedtime snack at 8.30pm. (Bed is at 9pm but they don’t sleep till later)

Have you tried waking them up earlier in the morning (like 6.30am) to see if it helps you get them to bed earlier? Similarly, bringing their dinner earlier might make them hungrier in the mornings?

10/11pm bedtimes and (presumably) late wake ups in the morning are not really compatible with British school times

To answer the question: As a teacher you don't always know which children are hungry unless they are stealing from other children's lunch boxes (it happens) but if they are falling asleep in front of you it is more obvious.

Yes, I see what you mean.

From my perspective I can tolerate hunger but hate feeling tired and was the same as a child.

Cross posted. Maybe cut out the bedtime snack?

You need to start moving their bedtime to earlier and getting them to have breakfast,late nights and no breakfast are the worst combination.

I mean this nicely and not teaching you how to suck eggs, but the later children are up, the longer you are 'missing the window of opportunity" for sleep time.

I speak from experience and it wasn't until I watched a programme on it, that I realised how true it was for DD age 7.

If I let her stay up, she goes past tiredness, gets a second wind of alertness, acts stupid, jumps around, etc etc,

(up and down for drinks, cuddles, its cold, its warm, its windy, I heard a noise )

If she goes to bed before she is tired (7pm ish) she is asleep within 10 mins, until 7a.m.

This morning she had half a hot cross bun, and a glass of coconut & almond milk. Not ideal but it was something. She will eat porridge though.

By the way, IF she stays up late, her behaviour the next day is bordering on violent with me.

So it is allowed very very rarely.

Yes, years of trying for routines like that minipie. They just have never slept any earlier and if they go at 10pm and get up at 8 then that’s 10hours which is all they need really (4yo rarely sleeps longer than 9 hours). They aren’t sleepy, if anything they are hyper at night - which I think is their way of dealing with being tired.

It’s more a general question about learning and teaching I suppose.

If she goes to bed before she is tired (7pm ish) she is asleep within 10 mins, until 7a.m.

That sounds good for her. Mine won’t sleep tho.

They are going to bed too late. Getting up at 6am is a reasonable time to get up, if they really do need to wait two hours before breakfast. It seems to me you are putting too much emphasis on what they want, as opposed to what needs to happen.

Providing they are getting enough sleep overall, there's nothing wrong with their bedtime.

If they can snack at morning break and then have their early lunch and other meals, they probably won't be hungry for much of the school day.

The hungry children who fall behind with learning will be those who don't get enough food overall, or are fed a nutritionally poor diet, and probably have other difficulties to deal with (chaotic household, insufficient space or support at home etc) not those who don't eat breakfast because they don't want it.

If their teachers are happy with how they are at school, I'd stop worrying about it.

I think hungry children are worse to teach (especially when they're young), as they often get hangry. Tired children will just fall asleep in class (not that that's great either, but at least their behaviour isn't affecting anyone else).

@TheSilentStars

They need to get used to having breakfast as soon as they get up and before they go to school.

Hunger at school will contribute to their tiredness, teachers will notice and you'll be asked gently at parents' evenings how come they're not having breakfast before school.

I notice that they flag around breaktime because they're in need of a ten minute relaxation moment and a quick snack. The ones who don't have breakfast tend to be like that from the start.

Yeah, we'll look for patterns or breaks in patterns of behaviour. If a child is constantly hungry in the morning, it is something worth approaching the parents about.

Both tiredness and hunger are pretty much as bad as each other. I (pre-Covid) had a stash of breakfast bars in the room and the learners knew where to find them. They'd take them, if necessary, and nobody made a fuss. They weren't the super-tasty ones, so they ate them out of necessity.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Honestly I'm not a breakfast person either.

But their bed time is a bit late. Tiredness stops you feeling hungry as u just feel kinda sick, I think if you got them to hed earlier then they might be hungry when they woke up. Or manage a breakfast cereal bar or something equally portable like a sausage bagel or whatever ..

I’m not a breakfast person either and neither are my parents. H is tho, he eats the moment he wakes. I was thinking there may be something hereditary in just not being into breakfast.

It sounds like they are getting the right amount of food, just at slightly unconventional times.

Obviously the best solution would be to move bedtime and get up earlier and have breakfast. You might find that after a week of being woken at 6am they start to fall asleep easier in the evenings. Cutting out the bedtime snack and waking hungrier and ready for breakfast may also work.

Don’t let best be the enemy of better though. If neither of those work, is it possible for them to take a more substantial morning snack into school?

DS started secondary school in September and has struggled to adjust to a 7am bus pick up. His school serve hot food at morning break, so he eats brunch, lunch, snack and supper. It seems to work well for him.

I would probably tell a blatant lie, and tell the older ones, that after speaking to the teacher today, they must go to bed earlier, even if it is to read.

If they will be present at the meeting, I would ask for the teachers support in front of the children.

Failing that. I would say I have emailed the teacher via eschools, or whatever your school uses, and staying up late has to stop.

I have lied and said I have rung the headteacher before, DD was very put out, but I dont care!