What do you think is worse to teach, tired children or hungry children?

[MrsKoala]

Just that really, I’m musing about breakfast particularly.

My dc (8,6 & 4) don’t like breakfast any earlier than an hour and a half after they have woken up, preferably 2.

If I woke them that early we’d all have to be up at 6am and lose 2 hours sleep (they are night owls so don’t go to bed till 10-11pm so need it).

I have always veered to the side of as much sleep as possible and they can just eat at lunch. But I’ve been reading that children who don’t have breakfast are further behind in school. But I’m wondering if the extra sleep would make up for that concentration?

Do you think kids are better tired or hungry? From a learning point of view. (That’s assuming the children are hungry I suppose - mine say they aren’t till 11ish anyway and the younger 2 get offered fruit snacks at 10am). Can they suffer from hunger without feeling hungry?

They aren’t sleepy, if anything they are hyper at night - which I think is their way of dealing with being tired.

Hyper and very energetic behaviour late at night almost always means a child is over tired. As another poster said they get a second wave and become silly / past feeling tired. You need to persit in having an earlier bedtime, it work work instantly, nothing ever does, but you need to try.

If their teachers are happy with how they are at school

So far teachers have said they are alert, engaged and happy. They’ve never mentioned them asking for food or acting tired. In fact a teacher of the 2 older ones commented once when I was helping out giving out snacks on a school trip (when ds2 was in yr1 and ds1 had been with her the year before) that they are the only ones in the class who decline snack time (Neither eat fruit or muesli bars).

What happens if you just put them in their rooms at 7.30/8pm and close the door ....?

They are going to bed too late. Getting up at 6am is a reasonable time to get up, if they really do need to wait two hours before breakfast

Genuine question. What difference does it make between them being in bed between 8 pm and 6 am and 10 pm and 8 am?

They probably do more useful things between 8 and 10 pm than they would between 6 and 8 am when they're likely to just be waiting around to have breakfast and go to school?

You need to persit in having an earlier bedtime, it work work instantly, nothing ever does, but you need to try.

We’ve tried for 7 years. We’ve had sleep consultants. They just won’t sleep. Or if they do (only ds2 and dd) they wake at 3-4am up for the day and that’s way worse as by 9am they are miserable.

I’m not a breakfast person either and neither are my parents. H is tho, he eats the moment he wakes. I was thinking there may be something hereditary in just not being into breakfast

I'm sure I've seen teachers on MN struggle also with the whole fruit at break thing. Kids have something sugary for breakfast like cereal or Nutella on toast then instead of being able to have something a bit longer lasting at break like say oatcakes and cheese or some bread attacks and hummus they consume yet more sugar. Obviously fruit does have other nutrients too but its still sugar....

Sounds like it would benefit kids like yours to have a better snack than the fruit at school.

Thats partly why I stopped eating breakfast cos being single or responsible for just me ( pre kids) I couldn't justify all that effort for just one person so marmalade on toast or a cereal bar on the way to work, well I was starbing like an hour later whereas on nothing I'd happily last until lunch break.

Maybe the teachers on this thread can confirm if they have similar problems in class...

@BarbaraofSeville

They are going to bed too late. Getting up at 6am is a reasonable time to get up, if they really do need to wait two hours before breakfast

Genuine question. What difference does it make between them being in bed between 8 pm and 6 am and 10 pm and 8 am?

They probably do more useful things between 8 and 10 pm than they would between 6 and 8 am when they're likely to just be waiting around to have breakfast and go to school?

So they can have breakfast. That’s what the OP is asking about.

@BarbaraofSeville

They are going to bed too late. Getting up at 6am is a reasonable time to get up, if they really do need to wait two hours before breakfast

Genuine question. What difference does it make between them being in bed between 8 pm and 6 am and 10 pm and 8 am?

They probably do more useful things between 8 and 10 pm than they would between 6 and 8 am when they're likely to just be waiting around to have breakfast and go to school?

Yes, at night we do puzzles, draw together, read, write stories etc. In the morning we wouldn’t do that.

Both the boys are very dyslexic and we find that time is when they actually engage with that stuff. I appear to have given birth to Mediterranean children (must be the Maltese heritage )

Both, though it depends on the age and the individual child. 'Hanger' remains an issue through the teen years!
There is lots and lots of research on both issues and fundamentally, it really does sound as if they're going to bed too late.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I’m not a breakfast person either and neither are my parents. H is tho, he eats the moment he wakes. I was thinking there may be something hereditary in just not being into breakfast

I'm sure I've seen teachers on MN struggle also with the whole fruit at break thing. Kids have something sugary for breakfast like cereal or Nutella on toast then instead of being able to have something a bit longer lasting at break like say oatcakes and cheese or some bread attacks and hummus they consume yet more sugar. Obviously fruit does have other nutrients too but its still sugar....

Sounds like it would benefit kids like yours to have a better snack than the fruit at school.

Thats partly why I stopped eating breakfast cos being single or responsible for just me ( pre kids) I couldn't justify all that effort for just one person so marmalade on toast or a cereal bar on the way to work, well I was starbing like an hour later whereas on nothing I'd happily last until lunch break.

Maybe the teachers on this thread can confirm if they have similar problems in class...

That’s interesting. I hadn’t thought about the effect of sugar in fruit at break time. I think when the 4 year old starts school she will be more into breakfast, she’s the best eater. But I think having bagels and fruit at 10am works fine for her.

I’d like to give ds1 some breadsticks and hummus for break but they won’t allow it. It has to be fruit.

I’d like to give ds1 some breadsticks and hummus for break but they won’t allow it. It has to be fruit

This is what I dont get i kean if they are pulling stuff out their lunch box for snack I dont see what difference the order makes if it gets eaten throughout the day.

@barbaraofseville they are missing breakfast because they are getting up too late

I do find it slightly hard to believe that all 3 children struggle to sleep at normal times. Even the 4 yr old, who you obviously havent been trying to get to sleep for 7 years

I dont think you should be sending them to school either tired or hungry. How are they supposed to learn if their basic needs arent being met? What about something to eat on the way in? A bagel with cream cheese/peanut butter that you can prepare the night before? Or half a bagel if one is too much

I wouldnt be soworried about the 4 year old having a snack at 10am if they are only getting up at 8.

But the other two arent eating till lunch?

Obviously we’ve just been trying for 4 years with the 4 year old. But 7 years with the 8 year old. Now the rule is in bed by 9 (rather than the 3 hours a night I was spending putting them to bed from 7pm) and asleep by 10. But the older 2 were still getting up and down till 11 last night.

We walk to school 5 mins away so eating on the way wouldn’t really work and they are still not interested.

The boys wouldn’t eat bagels or anything like that. The only breakfast ds1 will eat is a bacon panini and ds2 scrambled eggs on toast.

@whatwouldscullydo I agree eith this. Much better for their teeth to snack on the savoury item and have fruit with their lunch. Not sure why schools get so obsessed with fruit, its not the only healthy food item out there.

Do they have a morning break at school? Are they allowed to take something for breakfast then? The routine you wrote for your 4 year old at pre school sounds absolutely fine, I don't see any issues with bagel and fruit at 10am for breakfast.

Bedtime is different to what most people do but does sound like you have tried everything and they are coping fine with what you're doing.

If there is no concern at school, just carry on. If they are complaining of hunger at 10am, then they need to eat something in the car and take responsibility for their hunger. The big 2 are old enough to understand that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't your eldest have some additional needs @MrsKoala? Which is the root of their sleeping issues, rather than you just not having tried an earlier routine? Sorry, if I'm incorrect, I'm casting my mind back to earlier threads (I've been on this website longer than I thought, can't believe your DD is 4!)

If I am right, it sounds as though you've managed to establish some form of sleep routine, and I wouldn't be messing with that unless absolutely necessary. I'd let the teachers know what's happening in case they notice the children are hungry, and continue to offer food in the morning in case they change their minds.

You call the shots op not the kids!

Put them to bed earlier!
Give them a sandwich for break if you have to

I am not a breakfast eater either buy your kids need the be pushed on it

IIRC they're not neurotypical are they?
Neurodiverse children often are wired to be night owls or have sleep difficulties that will never be resolved by standard parenting techniques like being firm about an arbitary time that's popular with society.

Some people, including children just don't have an appetite in the morning. Having a low appetite and not getting hungry until late morning is very different to a child going in at 9am already hungry from inadequate opportunity to eat.

I have night owls. We're fortunate that school is a 5 minute walk and we don't have to be out until 8:53! The appetite of my two increases through the day, particularly in DS1 who has ASD. They have breakfast at 8:30. Not a lot, but something filling like porridge, beans on toast or eggs. More efficient than larger volumes of cereal or toast.

If they are getting a sensible quantity of sleep for their needs, and are being fed enough for their needs, you're doing a good job. Not all children fit neatly into average routines and parenting is about meeting the needs of the children you have.

@LittleMissNaice

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't your eldest have some additional needs *@MrsKoala*? Which is the root of their sleeping issues, rather than you just not having tried an earlier routine? Sorry, if I'm incorrect, I'm casting my mind back to earlier threads (I've been on this website longer than I thought, can't believe your DD is 4!)

If I am right, it sounds as though you've managed to establish some form of sleep routine, and I wouldn't be messing with that unless absolutely necessary. I'd let the teachers know what's happening in case they notice the children are hungry, and continue to offer food in the morning in case they change their minds.

Yes, sort of, but it’s as yet undiagnosed officially - it’s currently down as complex needs by the SENCO and EdPsych (a mishmash of sensory issues, impulse control, and dyslexia). Ds2 is also being seen for possible ADD, but it could be that he is just very young for his age and the youngest in the year and his dyslexia. Their dyslexia really manifests in disorganised thinking as well as the actual reading and writing and ds1 has very poor fine motor skills and ds2 is astonishingly clumsy.

But they are both treated at school like all the NT kids and have no extra issues that would mean they don’t eat breakfast (that I know of).

@BogRollBOGOF

IIRC they're not neurotypical are they? Neurodiverse children often are wired to be night owls or have sleep difficulties that will never be resolved by standard parenting techniques like being firm about an arbitary time that's popular with society.

Some people, including children just don't have an appetite in the morning. Having a low appetite and not getting hungry until late morning is very different to a child going in at 9am already hungry from inadequate opportunity to eat.

I have night owls. We're fortunate that school is a 5 minute walk and we don't have to be out until 8:53! The appetite of my two increases through the day, particularly in DS1 who has ASD. They have breakfast at 8:30. Not a lot, but something filling like porridge, beans on toast or eggs. More efficient than larger volumes of cereal or toast.

If they are getting a sensible quantity of sleep for their needs, and are being fed enough for their needs, you're doing a good job. Not all children fit neatly into average routines and parenting is about meeting the needs of the children you have.

That’s kind of my musings really. We all know adults who need more sleep or food at different times of the day. So I assume there will be children like that too. Regardless of whether NT or not.

The problem appears to be with the ones who want/need breakfast and are not getting it.

As for the "put them to bed earlier" type suggestions. My ND 9yo goes up around 9ish and 9-10 is quiet relaxing. 10 is lights out,vsleep time, but I can often go up thinking he's been asleep for and hour or two and get a cheery "goodnight" when I go upstairs. We get some help from props like the weighted blanket or yoga music, but both of mine just need less sleep than others and we all have a happier life working around it than having a late night battle night after night for years.

DM smugly put me to bed "nice and early" and I'd just end up reading by streetlight or cracks of light from the door for a couple of hours every night. Listening to the theme music of The Bill come and go, then Dramas like Van Der Valk. I got a hell of a lit less sleep than she liked to think that I did!

I used to buy those breakfast on the go bottles - Weetabix do them, and "up and go" - for my older child who refused breakfast to drink on his way to school. Maybe yours would tolerate a smoothie? Home made with strawberries, yoghurt, milk and some oatmeal would be perfectly healthy.

we all have a happier life working around it than having a late night battle night after night for years.

That’s what we have found too. We were all so miserable and stressed and the children were so frustrated.

I had the teacher consultations for the boys this morning and they said they hadn’t noticed any hunger or tiredness issues. I’m going to search for a recipe for some kind of breakfast biscuit they may nibble on the walk to school.

Thanks for all the input. I’m just mulling it all over.

OP the esearch indicates that hungry children don't do as well. Yours aren't hungry, nor are they missing out on sleep. Mine were exactly the same, no amount of moving bed times, meal times or bath times made a jot of difference. Strangely once they got to teenage years they started going earlier, my 17 year old could easily get into bed at 8pm on a Saturday night.
Don't stress what us working for you.