What do you think is worse to teach, tired children or hungry children?

[MrsKoala]

Just that really, I’m musing about breakfast particularly.

My dc (8,6 & 4) don’t like breakfast any earlier than an hour and a half after they have woken up, preferably 2.

If I woke them that early we’d all have to be up at 6am and lose 2 hours sleep (they are night owls so don’t go to bed till 10-11pm so need it).

I have always veered to the side of as much sleep as possible and they can just eat at lunch. But I’ve been reading that children who don’t have breakfast are further behind in school. But I’m wondering if the extra sleep would make up for that concentration?

Do you think kids are better tired or hungry? From a learning point of view. (That’s assuming the children are hungry I suppose - mine say they aren’t till 11ish anyway and the younger 2 get offered fruit snacks at 10am). Can they suffer from hunger without feeling hungry?

I’m not really a breakfast person. I tend to have dinner late and I’m just not Hungry again by morning. If I eat much earlier, like in Sunday’s when we eat with the children at 5 ish, then I am
Much more
Likely to want breakfast. I’d try cutting out
Their 8:30 supper. Maybe move dinner
To 6 ? Then no supper and they will be hungry for breakfast? I think waking them up at 6 in order to leave time to get hungry is slightly bonkers.

My DS was a terror going to bed but I used to get him in bed by 7.30 with a book. So even if he didn't fall asleep straight away he would be resting. Maybe you could gradually reduce bedtime? He always loved breakfast but I didn't as a child. I would always have to eat something even just an apple or piece of toast before leaving the house. I do think that children do not learn as well without something first thing

Yes if they are not NT then all the routines in the world won’t help. DD has the opposite issue - wakes at 5.30 no matter what and wakes even earlier when more tired.

If their teachers aren’t seeing any problems then I wouldn’t worry about it. If there is anything at all they’ll eat shortly afte waking - even if it’s not a usual breakfast food - then give them that but if not, sounds like they will cope till snack time.

You can make mini breakfast quiches in muffin tins in the oven. Or just a flapjack but using less syrup?

One of mine (also not NT) hates having to eat breakfast. He loves those weetabix drink things but they are pricey (for me anyway) we’ve come to a compromise where he will have an actimel and a cereal bar for breakfast and take a banana for break time. Previously he was refusing to eat until school dinner time. He is on medication that suppresses appetite which doesn’t help either but he is aware he needs to counteract that and has to eat even when he doesn’t feel like it.

www.myfussyeater.com/banana-orange-oat-toddler-bites/

If you’re after a quick recipe op after your last update my kids love these. Written as a toddler recipe but mine aren’t and I put chopped nuts/ dried fruit in them.

I don't have an answer to your question, OP, but as a parent to three natural night owls you might like to know that our eldest (just about to turn 13) has recently decided that sleep is in fact a good thing and has started taking himself off to bed at 9pm and is often asleep before his younger siblings. There is hope!

I’d love to hear some input from teachers on this thread as I have the same struggles. I’m from a family of night owls. We were out to bed early as children so just read for hours in bed. I’ve never liked breakfast until I’ve been up for a few hours.

My 5 year old sleeps from about 9.30 until 7.30 / 8am each day, I would prefer she got more sleep but I start her bedtime with a bath at 7pm.

Stopping late night food has helped mine be hungrier for breakfast

My ds (6) is a bit like you describe. Not quite so late to bed - more like 9/9.30 but I still think that’s too late- although he possibly would if I let him.

Also doesn’t like waking in the morning or have much appetite for breakfast. I have sympathy because that’s the way I am.

Anyway the one thing I can get him to eat a lot of mornings is yoghurt - plain Greek yoghurt, often with honey. Full fat type yoghurts are actually pretty good for keeping you going because fat apparently is the best thing for doing this. Will probably keep them going until fruit and milk time. If they aren’t already I’d make sure they are on the milk list as again the fat will keep them going, which fruit isn’t all that good for.

I was also put to bed very early as a child and have had memories of just lying there awake for hours.

I would probably tell a blatant lie, and tell the older ones, that after speaking to the teacher today, they must go to bed earlier, even if it is to read.

Neither of them can read. The 8yo particularly hates books and would not look at one as he can’t read a word and all the very basic ones from reception level are far too young to entertain him.

What happens if you just put them in their rooms at 7.30/8pm and close the door ....?

For the 8yo He just keeps coming downstairs and if we force him in there (really hard as he’s 5ft tall, 6st and very strong) all hell breaks lose, screaming, smashing things etc. We’ve been told not to persevere with that route. As it is he draws and builds Lego from 9 now. For the 6yo he also keeps coming down and there is a lot of tears because he is terrified of being alone - he still won’t go upstairs to the loo alone. He says our house is too big and to be fair his bedroom is 4 flights of stairs up. Last night he was doing some kind of bunny hop cartwheel things 9 till 10.30. The senco spoke to me yesterday during my consultation and they are going to push for an adhd dx.

Thanks for all the breakfast suggestions but the boys don’t eat anything wet or thick textured (no smoothies, juice or cereal). Only dry food and water - especially ds1. Which is why I thought some kind of dry oat biscuits might be a way to go.

It’s interesting about the correlation of night owls and lack of appetite for breakfast. I am also I interested in teachers perspectives @Gardenista just in general really. I expect there are children who can happily go without breakfast and ones who it affects and the teachers only really notice the ones it affects. The teachers I have discussed mine with always show surprise as they say they are the more alert ones. Especially ds1 who is firing on all cylinders all the time. Ds2 has trouble with concentration (but it’s more talking over himself excitedly about another subject than being daydreamy) which is why I was concerned about the breakfast/sleep.

Thanks @cheeseismydownfall and @zatarontoast you give me hope!

I had the same issues for years with my son (asd) It only improved when he went to a secondary school that provided breakfast in the canten either just before school or a breaktime/ he had the freedom to eat some of his packed lunch at breaktime. Ds just could not face breakfast until about 1-2 hours after he woke up. Ds's previous school was very inflexible about food at school and it caused huge behaviour issues and he sometimes ended up with the shakes.

The sleep issue only resolved when I sent off to the US for melatonin as the Dr said he might not be producing enough but the consultant refused to prescribe it until ADHD had been ruled out (took 2 years to get the appointment to rule it out the conclusion was he does not have ADHD but does have an ASD)

Those sayig just put them to bed earlier don't understand it isn;t a parenting issue. Dd was brought up exactly the same and she was in bed early, up at the crack of dawn and had to eat straight away.

@RosesforMama

I used to buy those breakfast on the go bottles - Weetabix do them, and "up and go" - for my older child who refused breakfast to drink on his way to school. Maybe yours would tolerate a smoothie? Home made with strawberries, yoghurt, milk and some oatmeal would be perfectly healthy.

Yes, I've resorted to those in the past or even just getting ds to drink a glass of milk

We tried 3 months of melatonin from the US too for ds1. He’ slept 7.30-7 pm for the whole time (but his behaviour and eating patterns didn’t change/improve). The day they stopped he was awake till 1am. The idea is once they are in that pattern then they will be easier to continue even when the meds have stopped. But it never worked like that for us.

Thanks for all the breakfast suggestions but the boys don’t eat anything wet or thick textured (no smoothies, juice or cereal). Only dry food and water - especially ds1. Which is why I thought some kind of dry oat biscuits might be a way to go.

I struggle with protein for ds (he hates the texture of meat). His breakfast of choice (hash browns with bread and butter) didn't sustain him and he often crashed so I used to give him Weetabix Protein Crunch. They taste exactly the same as chocolate Weetos but with twice the protein and ds eats them dry, you could put some in a food bag for them to eat onthe journey to school maybe.

@MrsKoala

We tried 3 months of melatonin from the US too for ds1. He’ slept 7.30-7 pm for the whole time (but his behaviour and eating patterns didn’t change/improve). The day they stopped he was awake till 1am. The idea is once they are in that pattern then they will be easier to continue even when the meds have stopped. But it never worked like that for us.

Ds is 16 now and still takes it but not every day now. Lockdown took a lot of pressure off him and his behaviour improved tremendously. Starting college has been good too.

Thanks I’ll buy some. Ds1 will sometimes snack on dry cornflakes so he may like those. We don’t struggle with protein as such as he mainly eats Lidl Turkey salami and Aldi ersatz peperamis. But I do worry about the level of salt and processed food. Ds2 only eats Sainsbury’s frozen sausage rolls for lunch, but I can get scrambled egg or omelette into him but only if I feed him.

It's not about getting into a pattern is it. It's about the fact they don't produce enough.

Another big help has been giving ds vitamin D gummies. We started due to the research regarding coronavirus but it's had a pleasant side effect of giving ds more energy in the day and improved sleep.

Yes, the boys have a vitamin high in vit D and laxatives as advised by the paediatrician.

My daughter whos 8 rarely has breakfast. She messes around in the morning far too much and ends up not having time.

Shes a nuisance for going to bed. Its usually gone 9.30pm before shes asleep and then shes tired at 7.45am when im trying to get her out of bed. She then does everything in slow motion.

She continually shouts me when shes in bed at night if i try to get her in bed for say 7.30, complaining she cant sleep. Then when i check on her shes reading or messing about.

Hi OP
I feel your pain. I have a DS who didn't sleep and some people don't get it. I would put him to be led at 7 and he would still be awake at 11. Years and years of trying led me to just run with it - never had any issues with tired or hungry at school. He hates breakfast early too.

Both DS and I are nocturnal. We are also dyspraxic so wired differently. I don't sleep or eat breakfast until I get to school (up at 6:30 eat at 8). DS is now 16 and still the same.

Some kids just don't follow a normal pattern - DS used to build Lego sat quite happily in his room until he was tired.

Just one other thing to suggest which is magnesium (at bedtime) and fish oils.

Magnesium has a sleep aid effect, some find it’s better absorbed through the skin so there are magnesium creams (eg BetterYou does a child one) but don’t know how your DSs feel about creams, DD hates them so we use chewable tablets. Magnesium also has a mild laxative effect so might enable you to reduce laxative dose.

Fish oils just generally fab IME especially for non NT and helping with focus. You may well have them already though.

Melatonin didn’t change the pattern for us either. But we found we could use it just occasionally to get her some extra sleep if she needed a catch up, eg towards the end of term or after some bad nights with lots of wake ups.

I cant eat when i wake up either. In fact if i force stuff down i get a real low mid morning, wheras if i dont i am fine until lunch. I presume they get a snack and have an early lunch at school.

My dc is slightly older(12), and similar. Never a good sleeper, so never went to bed like other children. And he was not keen eater in the morning either when he just woke up.
He goes to bed around 11:30 and get up at 7. He never get up feeling tired though, and used to get up way earlier before, but now got used to sleep slightly longer, maybe due to age.
He hardly eats any breakfast, but I make sure he eats at least a bit. And he takes snack to eat at morning break.

I suppose the follow up question is, is a bad breakfast better than no breakfast? Ie biscuits, crisps etc? Would it be better for kids to have nothing or a custard cream?