Can school exclude over toileting?

[SleepingStandingUp]

So I know they can't from an equality pov if the child has issues etc, but if they believed / the parent believed it was down to laziness not a physical issue? At what age would they kinda draw the line and say the child can't attend until they're clean and dry?

I've always excepted my child hasn't got the feeling yet, Dr has said maybe because he hasn't had it previously he's not yet learnt to interpret it but I'm increasing worried he just doesn't want to.

He's utterly unbothered about being in a wet or dirty nappy, shows no distress if he's in pants and wees himself. Will deny there's poo in his pants at home so he doesn't have to go and change himself but will tell at school after it's done.

We're waiting for another appointment and have a follow up following the initial constipation diagnosis but what is its just shit parenting and lazy child? I don't know how to make him tell us in time!! Rewards don't work, I've been told not to shame him although we've had discussions about being a big boy Vs a baby that have upset him. He wants to be a big boy, he seemingly doesn't want to stop using nappies.
He's 5 and year 1

[BlackeyedSusan]

try contacting the school nurse.

or ERIC

some kids just can't tell.

[JaJaDingDong]

You don't see many 16 year olds in nappies OP. I wouldn't sweat just yet.
Maybe the peer pressure of everyone else using the toilet in school might be the stimulus he needs to "grow up" - and kids won't be backward in coming forward if they smell a poo smell around him .

Does he go to pre-school now?

[madcatladyforever]

This surely must be a medical issue. Id ask for a referral.

[Lifeaintalwaysempty]

When did you first try to potty train him?

[feesh]

Has he ever had constipation? It could be a condition called encopresis, which U.K. doctors are crap at diagnosing - there are a couple of FB groups you could join for advice. One is called “Help’ My child has encopresis” and the other is called “Encopresis Support UK”.

You will need a bowel X-ray and ideally anal manometry (although the latter is not widely done in the U.K.) and try and push back if prescribed Movicol as it’s useless and often makes things worse.

In summary he would need a care plan, yes, which the school should abide by and they can’t exclude him on this basis as it’s a medical issue most likely.

But first, you need to push your GP for a referral and ideally to a consultant recommended in the FB group. ERIC can also be very supportive and helpful (the charity, not a person!).

[1forAll74]

I have never heard of a child of 5 who still wears nappies. I don't suppose a child would be excluded from school because of this, but it's not a brilliant situation to be in for the school staff.

[acquiescence]

Have you thoroughly disimpacted? We had to be on very high doses of Movicol for several months to clear my son out (nearly 5) and prevent soiling. If he is impacted it is a medical issue and he won’t be able to feel that he needs to poo. Have a look at the ERIC advice. Google a video called ‘the poo in you’. Rewards won’t work. It’s good you have a referral in place. Insist on an x Ray. You also need an EHCP plan in place for toileting.
Good luck, it’s a horrible thing to be dealing with.

[PathOfLeastResitance]

You certainly wouldn’t get an EHCP for toileting in my area. You also wouldn’t get a child excluded for toileting issues at any age. Good luck with further referrals - school could refer to the school nurse (in this area).

[ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings]

I'm having a very similar problem with my 4 year old OP. Some days he'll do it perfectly and make the toilet every single time, and other days he just won't do it at all and like your child he just doesn't seem bothered to sit in wet or dirty pants. It must be laziness and not wanting to stop playing, because he can do it when he wants to. I've been trying to potty train him since he learnt the word for potty at around 2! Sorry I have no advice, but lots of solidarity. I will say though that I've worked in reception classes a few times with children who weren't potty trained and I never ever heard exclusion even breathed as an option so I'd be surprised if anyone wanted to take that route.

[Squeezed]

If he’s been very constipated then he might not feel when he needs a bowel movement. This can take time to come back. Also any constipation could put pressure on the bladder and make it harder to control. DD had this and it became so embarrassing that she would rather be unclean then tell anyone about mess.

The trigger for her was food intolerances and after getting her disimpacted with Movicol than having a maintenance dose, things improved. The emotional side was more tricky to resolve. The ap Poo goes home to Pooland helped with refusal to go to the toilet. We also used body books to show how the body worked.

We had support from the Continence Service and the focus was on supporting DD, not showing our frustration (very hard), and making her feel comfortable and safe. Also as others have said ERIC is really useful. I’m not exaggerating when I say it dominated our lives but is pretty much resolved for us now. It can be a long road and it can be really hard but he’ll get through it.

[1AngelicFruitCake]

I would keep pushing for help from the doctor and school. This isn’t typical for a Year 1 child and another child might say something to him - would that bother him? If you take nappies away and without attention, get him to clean himself would that help? Might be a medical issue that he really can’t help though but the not being bothered about being wet/dirty is more than just not knowing he’s done it.

[Love51]

If he is soiling during the day, you need support from the continence clinic. You say you are waiting for an appointment. In the meantime follow the advice you got at the last appointment. They can't exclude for soiling.

[SleepingStandingUp]

@BlackeyedSusan

try contacting the school nurse.

or ERIC

some kids just can't tell.

So he tells me he can't tell. Eric suggested constipation. Also saw consultant. Treated for constipation.

But it's the unwillingness to change out of dirty nappies etc, difference between home and school in telling us when he's soiled/wet himself

[SleepingStandingUp]

@JaJaDingDong

You don't see many 16 year olds in nappies OP. I wouldn't sweat just yet.
Maybe the peer pressure of everyone else using the toilet in school might be the stimulus he needs to "grow up" - and kids won't be backward in coming forward if they smell a poo smell around him .

Does he go to pre-school now?

He's in Year 1, that's my work. He doesn't seem to be that bothered or aware what the other kids might say. He's been in that school since just before 3 so nursery, reception and now yr1

[SleepingStandingUp]

@Lifeaintalwaysempty

When did you first try to potty train him?

We've been trying on and off for years, he's never shown any awareness and was pretty much non verbal til gone 3 which didn't help

[SleepingStandingUp]

@feesh

Has he ever had constipation? It could be a condition called encopresis, which U.K. doctors are crap at diagnosing - there are a couple of FB groups you could join for advice. One is called “Help’ My child has encopresis” and the other is called “Encopresis Support UK”.

You will need a bowel X-ray and ideally anal manometry (although the latter is not widely done in the U.K.) and try and push back if prescribed Movicol as it’s useless and often makes things worse.

In summary he would need a care plan, yes, which the school should abide by and they can’t exclude him on this basis as it’s a medical issue most likely.

But first, you need to push your GP for a referral and ideally to a consultant recommended in the FB group. ERIC can also be very supportive and helpful (the charity, not a person!).

Eric suggested constipation. Consultant gave movicol which cleared him out and is now keeping poo soft. Awaiting appt with second consultant in bowel clinic as he's had some other medical issues and whilst the Dr is convinced it isn't linked, he concedes that he needs to may hands on him

[feesh]

The unwillingness to deal with it is all part of a very complex condition and like previous poster has said, it really does take over your life and affect the whole family. Please join the FB groups I mentioned above - you will get a lot of help from people who understand in there.

He most likely can’t feel when he needs to go, due to nerve damage, but there will be additional behavioural and psychological layers on top of this which make it very hard to tackle.

Unfortunately some of the snidey comments above are representative of the attitudes in schools that you will come across. You will need to find a good doctor and consultant, and get help and support from ERIC.

This is a very complex and difficult medical issue and the school can not discriminate. But be prepared to fight.

[SleepingStandingUp]

@1forAll74

I have never heard of a child of 5 who still wears nappies. I don't suppose a child would be excluded from school because of this, but it's not a brilliant situation to be in for the school staff.

Not exactly out of choice. I'm aware his 121 is doing a job she likely didn't expect to (still) be doing altho presumably it was discussed when she was hired last September. Were doing all we can to at least make him independent in changing his nappies

[PickAChew]

With such a combination of issues has he been investigated for any neurodevelopmental conditions? Are any other aspects of his behaviour of concern to you?

[SleepingStandingUp]

@acquiescence

Have you thoroughly disimpacted? We had to be on very high doses of Movicol for several months to clear my son out (nearly 5) and prevent soiling. If he is impacted it is a medical issue and he won’t be able to feel that he needs to poo. Have a look at the ERIC advice. Google a video called ‘the poo in you’. Rewards won’t work. It’s good you have a referral in place. Insist on an x Ray. You also need an EHCP plan in place for toileting.
Good luck, it’s a horrible thing to be dealing with.

I've had a nurse friend have a feel of his abdomen, he's a slim thing so she got a good feel and she said she can't feel the hard poo the consultant could. He was pooing daily, then on the movicol had 2 poos, a bit of diarrhoea and then a few smaller watery small poos so I think he is likely to have been pretty much clearer. He only has 3/4 of normal bowel length too

[SleepingStandingUp]

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

I'm having a very similar problem with my 4 year old OP. Some days he'll do it perfectly and make the toilet every single time, and other days he just won't do it at all and like your child he just doesn't seem bothered to sit in wet or dirty pants. It must be laziness and not wanting to stop playing, because he can do it when he wants to. I've been trying to potty train him since he learnt the word for potty at around 2! Sorry I have no advice, but lots of solidarity. I will say though that I've worked in reception classes a few times with children who weren't potty trained and I never ever heard exclusion even breathed as an option so I'd be surprised if anyone wanted to take that route.

That's reception Tho. What if it gets to Yr2 or beyond?

[drspouse]

My DD is in Y2 and still has issues. In Reception they helped her clean up but by Y1 she sorted herself out. She had massive impaction in her preschool year and the specialist nurse said it could take years for her bladder to get back to what it should be. We're on a low dose of Movicol again now because of some straining and soiling and the aim is to get her drinking more to increase her bladder size.
If you are not/no longer under a specialist you need to ask for that help.

[drspouse]

Sorry I've just realised you are under a specialist and he's still in nappies not pants. So he may have no feeling of being wet? I would suggest waterproof pants (they aren't really all that waterproof) as he will start to feel wet.

[Arosadra]

Alarm bells rang for me when you said he was non verbal until the age of 3. Lots of autistic children have these issues.

[ivfbeenbusy]

You said you only attempted toilet training "on and off" - what did that involve? A day here and there or a weekend or two? Or did you take 2 weeks off work and stay in the house and do it all day everyday?