Can school exclude over toileting?

[SleepingStandingUp]

So I know they can't from an equality pov if the child has issues etc, but if they believed / the parent believed it was down to laziness not a physical issue? At what age would they kinda draw the line and say the child can't attend until they're clean and dry?

I've always excepted my child hasn't got the feeling yet, Dr has said maybe because he hasn't had it previously he's not yet learnt to interpret it but I'm increasing worried he just doesn't want to.

He's utterly unbothered about being in a wet or dirty nappy, shows no distress if he's in pants and wees himself. Will deny there's poo in his pants at home so he doesn't have to go and change himself but will tell at school after it's done.

We're waiting for another appointment and have a follow up following the initial constipation diagnosis but what is its just shit parenting and lazy child? I don't know how to make him tell us in time!! Rewards don't work, I've been told not to shame him although we've had discussions about being a big boy Vs a baby that have upset him. He wants to be a big boy, he seemingly doesn't want to stop using nappies.
He's 5 and year 1

I just wanted to send you some solidarity. My boy had four operations early in his life. He potty trained beautifully before his third birthday, and then it all fell apart when he started school. He refused to sit on a toilet at all for about two years. Luckily, the TAs in his reception and year 1 classes were the most patient and kind people. They were wonderful and meant that he could stay in school.

Around the age of six he decided that he would use the toilet after all, and his SATs in air reached the incredible heights of 95. I am not sure how much it was just DS deciding he wanted to use the toilet, but we used all of the well known strategies such as blowing bubbles on the toilet.

I hope that things start to get better for your DS. I know how frustrating and demoralising it can all be. I think I cried more over the constant dirty clothes than I ever did about the months of ventilation.

My son had this - and he was autistic.

You say your son was non-verbal until gone 3. Have you had a good read on autism traits to see if anything else fits?

My son simply didn’t ‘notice’ - he also never ever made it to the loo or a bucket to throw up, and would happily throw up/have diahoreah in bed at night and just go back to sleep.

@SleepingStandingUp

Now I'm worried what lacking social motivation will mean for him growing up.

But now I'm thinking of DH and wondering if he has any

'Lacking social motivation' - autism

Re autism, I totally get why people suggest it, and if I mention the sensory issues in about to... But all these issues you're back to the ops at 20 months. No twirling or flapping, fairly decent eye contact, always very officially affectionate and wants validation etc.

I'll look again at interoception thank you.

I did wonder if it was sensory, after the ops he developed major food aversion for wet foods. He's still very picky and will go hungry before touching certain foods. Ice cream etc all no's. as they're too wet. Had sensory issues re sand etc but exposure at school helped resolve it. Would choose to play in really cold water or warm any day. Getting him to wash hands in warm is a battle and of he fills a sink to play, it's always freezing. He'll walk round with no socks on and his feet will be like icebergs but he won't mention it. But then he'll sit there in too many clothes (say coming in after being in the cold) until you tell him. It's like it just doesn't register

My son didn’t ‘flap’ and his eye contact was fine.

@Soonbechrimbo

Op are you saying your DS is on 02 as well? Is this as school?

Can I gently ask if you have considered a SN school for your little dude? Honestly from reading everything you have put I don't think toileting is something worth stressing about for now, just concentrate on keeping on top of the constipation and be wary of bypassing with stools. Keep him on the movicol and lots of fluids. Forget about the sticker charts etc for now. Just get him back to normal bowel habits for a good long while (months).

Noone thinks you're a lazy parent.

I agree with this and think OP has got a lousy SENCO, basically. But I also think there is a denial on the OP's part to fully embrace their child's difference as they frequently refer to 'lacking social motivation' which anyone familiar with autism will go 'well that's autism isn't it'

So the issue is twofold. Mum in denial and shitty SENCO. Ultimately it isn't the SENCO's remit to secure the correct provision, it is the parents. But I don't think the parents have a secure grasp on their child's developmental issues and are allowing themselves to be led by the SENCO, which is very common and not really their fault.

There are children in my son's class at special school with fewer obvious issues than the OP is stating here. And I was a SENCO, hopefully not a shitty one. I moved heaven and earth to get my child into special school from Day 1 because I've seen the same story we have here over and over and over.

@SleepingStandingUp

Re autism, I totally get why people suggest it, and if I mention the sensory issues in about to... But all these issues you're back to the ops at 20 months. No twirling or flapping, fairly decent eye contact, always very officially affectionate and wants validation etc.

I'll look again at interoception thank you.

I did wonder if it was sensory, after the ops he developed major food aversion for wet foods. He's still very picky and will go hungry before touching certain foods. Ice cream etc all no's. as they're too wet. Had sensory issues re sand etc but exposure at school helped resolve it. Would choose to play in really cold water or warm any day. Getting him to wash hands in warm is a battle and of he fills a sink to play, it's always freezing. He'll walk round with no socks on and his feet will be like icebergs but he won't mention it. But then he'll sit there in too many clothes (say coming in after being in the cold) until you tell him. It's like it just doesn't register

You are describing my autistic son in your first paragraph.

Also very affectionate, interacted with other children, looked for validation, didn’t do the ‘typical’ odd things with lining up toys etc. At 6 he got ‘stuck’ socially and started to develop self awareness and socisl skills at a much much slower pace to others.

His ability to follow directions because obviously impaired. He would get lost in tasks that interested him, would talk ‘at’ people, couldn’t follow the flow of conversations/interactions with small groups of children, sensory seeking went through the roof...

I wouldn’t rule autism out - at 5 I was adamant there was nothing ‘wrong’

OP I assume your child is under a paediatrician (probably several) because of the physical stuff. I would be pushing for an assessment for ASD. Sensory stuff: ASD. Lacking social motivation: ASD. Speech delay: ASD.

You are literally ticking every box.

Just because he's not presenting "typical" ASD doesn't mean it's not there.

Non verbal, sensory issues and lack of social motivation/awareness sit firmly in that area. It can also be related to the trisomy issues.

You need to push for help again. It's definitely not lazy parenting, your son has additional needs he, and you, deserve help with. Best of luck x

@mintyfreshh I had the same thoughts.

Do you have a bowel nursing service near you ...they may be called continence service ...in practical terms are often more useful..
It is highly likely to be connected to his delay. They can sometimes work with schools as well

Thanks GuyFawkes although clearly Minty and Soon disagree.

DS is seen regularly in class by the SENCO, there are children in his school with autism and it's not like we lack the funding or EHCP. He's seen by paediatric consultants across two hospitals, wive had input from special health visitors from birth to 3 as well as portage. He's seen consultants who've never met him before and ones he's known since birth. The only people who ever question autism are the people who see him on paper. I'm not denying that posters on here have vastly more experience with autism than I do, I just don't believe that it's so clear on here and yet every doctor who has met him hasn't seen it.

If I thought he had autism than I'd be speaking to the school / paediatrics but he has a medically complicated history including wonky chromosomes that accounts for the issues with speech, the issues with sensory stuff, the learning delay, and they lead into an explanation for the social stuff.

I get that posters think I'm just a shit mom denying her child the proper support because I don't want to have autism but that isn't the case.

I've accessed every support going, I've asked for help with his behaviour from our new paed and accepted help with his fineotor skills, we were going out of our way to speech therapy every week before lockdown and the specialist dentists and the surgical reviews, the two respiratory consultants, the cardiologist, neuro when there was a query on skull size, held him down for all sorts of procedures, I've pushed for a review on his bowels and his toiletting. I'm not sitting here thinking my child is "perfect" , I'm fully aware he has "too many" chromosomes, I pushed for the extra testing yearly for the things he's at marginally increase risk of just to be sure.

We've turned over all the stones, we are not burying out head in them.

To answer your original question: no the school cannot exclude. They won't want to either. It's not something schools do unless it's absolutely necessary.

They can recommend a move to a special school if they cannot meet a child's complex needs within their school environment. This is not done often but can happen where building cannot accommodate an electric wheelchair, for example.

It sounds like your son has a long medical background and nobody on here will be able to offer you much advice on loo training based on this as it sounds like you've tried everything.

Just keep pushing with the medics he has and keep the school in the loop.

Lots of children with developmental delay have sensory issues - it's not just children with ASD.

Thanks GuyFawkes. As long as someone carries his O2 cylinder, he can totally change himself, he's got and miss with wiping and obv he needs telling to go but I'm hoping the fact he can do it himself will help us