Can school exclude over toileting?

[SleepingStandingUp]

So I know they can't from an equality pov if the child has issues etc, but if they believed / the parent believed it was down to laziness not a physical issue? At what age would they kinda draw the line and say the child can't attend until they're clean and dry?

I've always excepted my child hasn't got the feeling yet, Dr has said maybe because he hasn't had it previously he's not yet learnt to interpret it but I'm increasing worried he just doesn't want to.

He's utterly unbothered about being in a wet or dirty nappy, shows no distress if he's in pants and wees himself. Will deny there's poo in his pants at home so he doesn't have to go and change himself but will tell at school after it's done.

We're waiting for another appointment and have a follow up following the initial constipation diagnosis but what is its just shit parenting and lazy child? I don't know how to make him tell us in time!! Rewards don't work, I've been told not to shame him although we've had discussions about being a big boy Vs a baby that have upset him. He wants to be a big boy, he seemingly doesn't want to stop using nappies.
He's 5 and year 1

@CrocodileFondue

I know what you mean about people thinking you're lazy too, I'm paranoid that everyone thinks I just didn't bother to train him. Teachers made comments like, "maybe get a book or a sticker chart?" We have all the books, songs, apps, charts, bribes, etc. Not Working!

Haha yes the sticker chart. He likes stickers but he's not really motivated by them. He knows what happens if we give his nappies to the nappy fairy and we've done other smaller prizes / treats but to no avail

I have never met a child that grew out of their additional needs, ever, as a parent or SENCO (which I was for ten years).

@mintyfreshh

I have never met a child that grew out of their additional needs, ever, as a parent or SENCO (which I was for ten years).

Sorry I mean additional needs in little letters- he has a speech delay but it's getting better. He is on o2 but that is in theory going to send resolve or we'll just reach a point when we accept shit SATS. He's behind on fine motor skills and combined with his speech he's historically been behind in school but it's improving and he's low-midstream in most thing's. He's socially immature but again he's improving - he started nursery unwinking to even sit by other children and now has a best friend he loves and other friends at school .

How is he at using the toilet, will he sit on it if you take him or does he refuse.

I'll literally say "DS go and try and have a wee" and he'll go up, bit his toddler seat on, and try
If he comes down quick, he's done one and if he's ages it's cos he hasn't so sits there til he's bored.

Bit he'll also whine and create of he doesn't want to leave his toys behind etc. and so that's what me again laziness/parenting.

I get the idea behind leaving him in pants constantly but that's not very sanitary in a fairly small house with two 10 month old babies. And what do about school? His lovely 121 has asked if it's worth trying pants at school yet and said she's happy changing him, bit of he owes on the phonics carpet and soaks another kid that's a different issue, and I'm not aware of any bullying but of he's constantly peeing on the floor that's going to change pdq

@feesh

Has he ever had constipation? It could be a condition called encopresis, which U.K. doctors are crap at diagnosing - there are a couple of FB groups you could join for advice. One is called “Help’ My child has encopresis” and the other is called “Encopresis Support UK”.

You will need a bowel X-ray and ideally anal manometry (although the latter is not widely done in the U.K.) and try and push back if prescribed Movicol as it’s useless and often makes things worse.

In summary he would need a care plan, yes, which the school should abide by and they can’t exclude him on this basis as it’s a medical issue most likely.

But first, you need to push your GP for a referral and ideally to a consultant recommended in the FB group. ERIC can also be very supportive and helpful (the charity, not a person!).

This, please look into Encoporesis. It's poorly diagnosed and understood. It is not bad parenting or a lazy child. Sometimes it's slow bowel transit but it lol starts with constipation, stretched bowel and overflow. It's tough to treat and can take years of medication both stool softener and stimulants, even enemas and suppositories but most of all patience from both parents and school. Good luck and no school should exclude for a medical condition.

I also meant to say, there are some games you can play on the toilet to help them push. Try a recorder, a balloon or blowing bubbles. Don't make him feel bad, try and keep toilet time positive.

Op are you saying your DS is on 02 as well? Is this as school?

Can I gently ask if you have considered a SN school for your little dude? Honestly from reading everything you have put I don't think toileting is something worth stressing about for now, just concentrate on keeping on top of the constipation and be wary of bypassing with stools. Keep him on the movicol and lots of fluids. Forget about the sticker charts etc for now. Just get him back to normal bowel habits for a good long while (months).

Noone thinks you're a lazy parent.

Accessing special needs schools are not as easy as you might imagine @Soonbechrimbo and from what the Op has written it is unclear if her son would meet the criteria

It’s interesting about the operation. My DS is three and has had eight operations. He always without fail develops toileting issues after and has a complete aversion to bowel movements now. He isn’t constipated but will try to hold them in for as long as possible.

I do wonder if there could be a psychological link? My DS’s surgeon believes that is the case for him.

I think what I mean is that DC with health conditions can manifest their reaction to this in different ways.

O think he isn't bothered. He isn't very socially aware id say, it's hard to get him to understand why don't do things other people don't like etc, but that's part of being 5 i guess

No, @SleepingStandingUp, I don’t think it is part of being 5, I think the vast vast majority of 5 year olds have that social awareness.

@x2boys

Accessing special needs schools are not as easy as you might imagine *@Soonbechrimbo* and from what the Op has written it is unclear if her son would meet the criteria

Yes I'm well aware, sheesh.

It's a fucking long slog OP and I feel for you (Movicol Mummies is another good one on FB)... I would say that it took until year 2 for us to start making some headway with DD2, and we still have blips now in year 3. If there's been no sensation it can take as long as they've had issues again for it all to clear up. We're still on movicol now.

Things I found that helped - tracking every single accident and bowel movement - (bristol stool scale style - although between me and DH it has been known as "rate my shit" in this house at times) - helped us pin down times she was more likely to go - so we could start to time toilet sits around those times and get some successes down to reinforce it all! We now are into a pattern where we'll send her up to try for a poo after breakfast and tea and 80% of the time she'll do one - if she doesn't go for a day or so we up the movicol dose slightly to prevent her blocking up again... it's taken a LOT of monitoring it and spending far too much time interested in shit for us to get to that stage.

Loads of good Operation Ouches on poo as well and how you release it when you open your bowels. DD2 has loved them.

We switched tack from emphasising dryness - to emphasising telling an adult when you'd had an accident and really praised for that - but they do genuinely just not notice it - the part of their brain that thinks "eww damp and smelly" has clocked off completely to cope with the situation.

I firmly believe dyspraxia and inability to coordinate it all started DD2's constipation off - she blocked up, lost sensation and it all went tits up from there. We had to explain to her the feeling of trying to poo - we told her to try to push her tummy button out through her bottom just using her insides which seemed to explain it to her.

@SleepingStandingUp

I didn't mean to insinuate bad parenting but it's useful to know all the history. My DD was the same - not bothered, didn't tell us when she needed to go etc. But we instigated toilet training at age 3 regardless of that - took a couple weeks off and didn't leave the house and focussed on it all day every day. Appreciate it's a bit different if he isn't as verbal

@x2boys

Accessing special needs schools are not as easy as you might imagine *@Soonbechrimbo* and from what the Op has written it is unclear if her son would meet the criteria

We don't. When we were looking at 2 we considered it but I mentioned this reception year to the SENCO she (kindly, we have a very good relationship) laughed and said he wouldn't meet the criteria.

Re fluids he's not great, he didn't take oral fluids from 4 months to about 3 years but he is (drop feed) partly tube fed so we've been putting 500ml of water through overnight to help and put up his post milk flushes

@Useruseruserusee

It’s interesting about the operation. My DS is three and has had eight operations. He always without fail develops toileting issues after and has a complete aversion to bowel movements now. He isn’t constipated but will try to hold them in for as long as possible.

I do wonder if there could be a psychological link? My DS’s surgeon believes that is the case for him.

Can oxask what age? DS was 2 weeks when he had the first abdo op, then 10 months, two bowel resection s (I wasn't drip feeding, I was trying to focus on of it wasn't medically based) and then two more abdo ops inc the PEG, all before 18omths. Nothing since. No withholding as I can tell, will poo in class.

I'm also waiting for a referral re his behaviour as the tantrums etc have escalated over lockdown and I need we support. Not meltdowns, if I gave in he'd stop being hysterical. Maybe they can help

@Soonbechrimbo yes permanent o2, that's essentially how we got a 121

@PotteringAlong I don't really spend much time around 5 year olds. I don't mean like he'll hurt People but he likes shouting a lot, I can't get him to understand/care that it wakes the babies because he likes it when they're awake even tho it means they cry. Or just making that noise on the bus say. It isn't a tic, I think just a reaction to finding his voice late.

@DominaShantotto I'll have a look at Operation Ouch and the other stuff, thanks

My friends daughter was 5-6 when she stopped nappies

I used to say to my friend. She will stop when she stops.

Literally one day and boom. She stopped. Never needed them since. It does happen.

The constipation problem could be causing it

So when we are constipated. Our vowels stretch. That stretch can take up to 2 years to go back down.

Good luck op

Mind you

Now I've read the thread

My friend has such a rare genetic disorder. She's been allowed to name it! Seeing as she's the 2nd ever known. Sadly the first one died and they were an orphan. Plus it wasn't found till after they died.

Genetics is just out of this realm. I don't have any words of advice. But it could be anything with genetics.

Hugs to you mama x

Hospital have said it should take a few months but uugghh to longer, if o can't toilet train one how the f will o do twins and potentially the older one at the same time.

He was on loperamide for a while for diarrhoea and we self weaned so assumed the frequent but "manly" poos were normal. I'm so angry gastro never followed is upm. Surgical who did the bowel resection would ask how he was but their focus is his diaphragm so that's what the X-rays would be

I'll try and remember to call and see if there's any evidence of constipation on there, it will show part of the bowels but I reckon he's been like it since about March 2017 so 3 years

I've asked if he wants to be a big boy like X, Y and Z, they go to the toilet like big kids, the babies wee on their nappy. When he's lord about having a poo I've pointed out no one will want to sit by him in school of he's smelly etc. He's like "yeah yeah no o don't want that" but nothing changes.

You see, all of this uses social motivation as the strategy to motivate the child. Using a toilet because big boys do, using a toilet because other people think it's gross if you don't... it's all to do with social structures. If the child is not socially motivated (as you have said yours isn't) it won't work.

Where there is a lack of social motivation you are really left with routine and habit. Many children who are not socially motivated at all can be toilet trained relatively successfully this way. However, you may need some help to get set up, hence looking for a professional who has worked with a lot of families in a similar boat.

Now I'm worried what lacking social motivation will mean for him growing up.

But now I'm thinking of DH and wondering if he has any

It sounds like he has poor interoception - he is not getting the signals that he needs to go. Linked to not getting the signals that he is slowly becoming angry - so children with poor interoception are more likely to have giant tantrums.

This is a really good explanation