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Original poster

Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

973 replies

Icantthinkofabettername · 17/10/2020 08:57

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

OP posts:
notafanoftheman · 18/10/2020 07:07

The CH cartoon of Christiane Taubira as a monkey was satirizing an attack on her in the extreme right-wing publication la minute.

queenofknives · 18/10/2020 08:18

How is a teacher meant to teach if they're not allowed to teach? I think that allowing students the choice to leave the class was fair. In my class I will let students know if the topic we're covering is controversial and give them a chance to leave - but they certainly don't get to dictate the curriculum based on their feelings and beliefs.

I guess I can rest assured that should I ever have the misfortune to be murdered, people like you will be around to talk about how I "othered" students and how you can hardly blame murderers and terrorists for their actions when TEACHERS will go around teaching them.

joystir59 · 18/10/2020 08:24

Charlie Hebdo cartoons are Islamiphobic in my opinion, but unless they were inciting hatred or violence they are not illegal even though many may find them offensive. They are an example of freedom of speech being exercised

Killing people in terrorist acts is indefensible no matter what the provocation.

Pikachubaby · 18/10/2020 08:27

I think your justification and victim blaming here is absolutely disgusting OP

queenofknives · 18/10/2020 08:40

Stop calling what the teacher did 'provocation'. Teaching isn't provocation. (Drawing cartoons also isn't provocation.) The teacher did not 'provoke' someone into murdering him. What you're doing by using this word is called victim blaming. It's cruel and wrong in any context, but in this context it is absolutely disgusting.

StarCat2020 · 18/10/2020 08:47

I think your justification and victim blaming here is absolutely disgusting OP
Me too.

raddledoldmisanthropist · 18/10/2020 08:51

I am not sure that this material should be shared in a classroom though, at that point you take away the freedom of people (kids) who don’t want to engage with it.

Depends on the age of the kids. There was nothing graphic in the cartoons. I'm guessing this was older teens, in which case I'd expect them to be able to cope with much worse content in a safe classroom discussion environment.

And to seemingly tell some students that they can leave the classroom if they find it offensive?

Make your mind up, is it make them stay or let them leave? I give similar warnings for dissections (although not for older kids because they shouldn't be on the course if they can't cope).

If we all decide that stepping out for a minute is so 'othering' that the rest of the class should miss important content then our society really is fucked.

notafanoftheman · 18/10/2020 08:58

I believe the kids were 13-14.

LaChatte · 18/10/2020 09:22

He taught it in 4eme, which is the equivalent or year 8 or 9 (French schools pupils are sorted by the calendar year, not September to August).

LaChatte · 18/10/2020 09:23

(Most of them would have been 13).

Cam2020 · 18/10/2020 09:27

I think your views are dangerous and disgusting, OP, but guess what? I'm not about to resort to violence and murder to shut down a voice I dislike, I'm going to politely say you're entitled to your view and I disagree.

queenofknives · 18/10/2020 09:28

Those children will be utterly traumatised by what's happened to their teacher. If you think they can't cope with a cartoon then how do you think they are going to cope with the horror of their teacher being killed? I can hardly believe people are more willing to criticise the teacher for teaching his class than they are the terrorist who murdered him and created utter terror for no doubt hundreds of children.

GingerScallop · 18/10/2020 10:42

Trut the teacher did ask those that felt uncomfortable not to look. That was before he shared. And these were teens. Let's remember, teens are radicalised too. If they don't learn about free speech and society controversy as teens when will they learn? It was to debate and not to just take one position. Read what students including some Muslim ones said: he was a good teacher who asked for debates. Meaning he asked the teens to engage in dialogue from different points of views.

BabyItsAWildWorld · 18/10/2020 10:51

OP have you seen The Book of Mormon the musical?
It's hilarious. And taking the piss in an extreme way. And has been running for years.

Have you seen the reactions of the Mormon community to the musical?
Let's just say they haven't beheaded anyone...

And that they may (imo) believe some weird stuff but boy are they gracious, resilient and self assured. New respect for Mormons.

See the difference?

TooTrueToBeGood · 18/10/2020 10:56

This has nothing to do with what the teacher did or with Charlie Hebdo. This barbaric attack happened because the individual who carried it out had been radicalised to the point he was ready to commit a terrorist act. He did not go from being a happy-go-lucky, peace loving member of society last week to being outraged to the point of committing a horrific murder this week because of anything the teacher did. If he hadn't committed this particular outrage he would have commited another one for some other spurious reason some time soon, because he was a radicalised terrorist.

This is not about Islam, it is not about Charlie Hebdo, it is not about the teacher. It is about the cult of Isis, extremists terrorists who use Islam as their excuse for terrorism and it is about vulnerable and disenfranchised individuals who are drawn into that cult and weaponized by the propaganda and brainwashing techniques it is clearly adept at.

Eastie77 · 18/10/2020 11:14

Ah yes notafan, as I noted in my post - comparing Taubira to a monkey was of course satire. Mocking the dead 3 year old Syrian refugee who was pictured washed up on a beach by suggesting that had he lived he would have turned out to be a rapist like other Muslim asylum seekers was satire. I bet his family found it hilarious. Because of course anyone who believes that CH's depictions are simply racist lack the intelligence to see the subtle genius in their work.

Nah, I don't buy it (literally and figuratively!) I've listened to interviews with their journalists as well as a former journalist who left because he felt CH's material was racist and Islamophobic. I happen to agree with him. I also believe journalists have the right to publish whatever they want, to do so without being murdered and a teacher has the right to discuss their material in a classroom. As said, I simply stopped buying CH and ignored it when I found it offensive and there is no reason others cannot do the same.

notafanoftheman · 18/10/2020 11:17

I’m not a CH fan myself. Just pointing out that the background is a bit more complex than your account suggested.

LaChatte · 18/10/2020 11:24

Well said @TooTrueToBeGood

rashalert · 18/10/2020 11:35

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eleventylevennamechanges · 18/10/2020 11:36

According to the news report I saw yesterday it was a parent who started a hate campaign against the teacher. I hope that person is arrested and charged for inciting hate and violence.

I remember learning about the holocaust in school when I was about 12. The photos we were shown were very distressing. How else are students to learn if they cannot be shown evidence/examples for discussion.

That poor teacher did nothing wrong.

TheOneWhoWalksInTheSun · 18/10/2020 11:39

How is it not about the teacher ?

Some bizarre logic employed there. And to what end?

TooTrueToBeGood · 18/10/2020 12:11

@rashalert

Islamaphobia.

A phobia is an irrational fear isn't it and after events like this (including the plotting of the parents concerned) there is nothing irrational in my fear of islam.

Teacher friends are also worried now about offending islam and that's not bloody irrational either-it;s sensible.

It is completely irrational. Islam is not a hive mind, any more than Christianity or Judaism is. There are roughly 2.5 million British muslims, almost 6 million French muslims. If your average muslim shared the views of the terrorists then there are enough of them that we would be in a state of open civil war. The statistics quite clearly demonstrate that the average muslim, just like the average non-muslim, just wants to go about their business and live life quietly and peacefully.

People like you are playing straight into the hands of the terrorists whose ultimate goal is to divide us and disrupt our societies. We can only do so much to stop terrorists being terrorists. The power we do have is to refuse to be terrorised.

rashalert · 18/10/2020 13:46

I'm sorry to say...rubbish. Well meaning but rubbish nonetheless.

rashalert · 18/10/2020 13:59

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PlanDeRaccordement · 18/10/2020 14:57

@TooTrueToBeGood
Yes the attacker had been radicalised over more than a weeks time
Yes ISIS is an extremist faction of Islamic terrorists
But, no, it was about Islam, it was about the teacher and his role in teaching about CH and free speech.

How do you think ISIS selects the targets for its terrorist attacks? Do you think it’s just random violence? It’s not. The teacher was specifically targeted because of how ISIS interprets and upholds their version of Islam, and that teachers actions which came to their attention via a parent informer who himself had relatives join ISIS in 2014