Not another trans thread, but a question to employers/managers

[CatsArePeopleToo]

If somebody reported that your employee is a TERF, would you fire her?
Asking this, because doxxing and harassment of women is obviously a thing.

I think it's just one of those things, if someone wants to be called Phil rather than Philip, I make the effort to call them Phil. I appreciate this topic is complex, however, on a human individual level in the workplace, I think it's respectful to use the pronoun they've asked for.

I might have strong feelings about politics, and I might find some of my colleagues really distasteful because of it, but the workplace isn't the place to share it

Genuinely concerned how much reach do the TRAs have.

So this isn't "another trans thread", but you have leapt to the conclusion that the only possible people who might complain about transphobia are TRA's. Yeah, right.

For the record, (and I am not a TRA, nor am I trans) as a manager, if someone reports any offensive or abusive behaviour by someone else, whoever the complainant or the accused, then I carefully investigate the circumstances of that complaint and come to a conclusion and an outcome within the grievance and disciplinary polices as laid down by my employer. Every grievance or disciplinary, no matter what it is about, arises from a specific set of circumstances, and I would take everything into account. I do not have, not do my employers (public sector) any "pre-decided" answers. That would be entirely wrong.

In this set of circumstances, for example, I would consider that you deliberately went out of your way to provoke a specific response whilst denying it was your intention. Similar to the "I'm not a racist but..." defence. At the very least you would get some words of wisdom about not being deliberately goading, and how your actions impact on others and reflect on your employer. Does that help? Not that you care, because that isn't the point, is it?

Did you not consider that the sacked employee also may have felt deeply uncomfortable about using language they believed was untrue?

@BlackPuddingEggs

Did you not consider that the sacked employee also may have felt deeply uncomfortable about using language they believed was untrue?

It may well have done. However, he signed the employee handbook and agreed not to discriminate against people based on gender identity. He had no issue using the new first name of a female colleague who changed hers, he didn't suddenly start referring to her by her job title. He didn't use neutral pronouns for anyone else.

So this isn't "another trans thread", but you have leapt to the conclusion that the only possible people who might complain about transphobia are TRA's. Yeah, right.

I was more interested how much feminist activism in spare time can be dangerous and what are employers' attitudes to doxxing.

I guess the problem is that there are statements that some people find offensive and discriminatory , when the opposite of th statements is offensive and discriminatory to other people

Transwomen are women is offensive and insulting to many women, whereas the opposite is offensive to many transwomen

There is no god, And God is every where.

@CatsArePeopleToo

So this isn't "another trans thread", but you have leapt to the conclusion that the only possible people who might complain about transphobia are TRA's. Yeah, right.

I was more interested how much feminist activism in spare time can be dangerous and what are employers' attitudes to doxxing.

I am willing to lay bets that I have been a feminist activist since before you were born. That does not imply that I agree with you on any subject. In fact, I would lay bets on it that I don't. Your definition of feminism is not everyone's definition. And that is why any manager would consider the individual circumstances in a balanced and fair way based on the actual circumstances - not formulaic approaches pre-determined by anyone, whatever their personal prejudices/opinions.

Yy. Of course I'd want to be polite to a colleague - but I sincerely see it as being equivalent to being told to make the sign of the cross or take part in religious rituals. I'd be lying, which I am godawful at and which burns me alive inside (don't know if this is an autism thing or a "me" thing!)

For now I am hoping it never comes up somehow, or if it does, I can somehow manage a way to deal with the lying.

I'd hope that it wouldn't undo the fact that I am an expert in my field and do a brilliant job generally.

I have real difficulty referring to my young transman family member as ‘he’, given this is someone I’ve known as female for umpteen years.

I’m autistic. I’m very fond of the kid (and appalled at the madness of lifechanging surgery in your teens, but that’s another story). I try to work round the obvious lie of calling them male now when they aren’t. It’s the best I can do. Bloody good thing my family can’t get all shirty and fire me for it.

I’d follow procedures and look at the content of the complaint to see if it was transphobic or just a woman stating the truth.

So not using compelled speech gets you fired. How progressive!

It was much more subtle than overt rudeness. He didn't use his deadname or pronouns, but used "they" repeatedly instead of he/him as requested, and pretty much avoided using his new name, referring to him by his job title wherever humanly possible. But was totally polite and pleasant the whole time. It was a wildly uncomfortable situation and we were so fucking relieved when he got the boot.

I find this so creepy. It's not acceptable to be polite or indifferent, you must put yourself out to 'validate' certain coworkers' ... ah, what neutral term can I use ... unique worldviews.

@Oxyiz

Yy. Of course I'd want to be polite to a colleague - but I sincerely see it as being equivalent to being told to make the sign of the cross or take part in religious rituals. I'd be lying, which I am godawful at and which burns me alive inside (don't know if this is an autism thing or a "me" thing!)

For now I am hoping it never comes up somehow, or if it does, I can somehow manage a way to deal with the lying.

I'd hope that it wouldn't undo the fact that I am an expert in my field and do a brilliant job generally.

I think it's an autism thing, Oxyiz. I'm the same. Find it very painful to knowingly lie or say I believe something I don't believe. It would be difficult for me to start refering to a colleague I'd previously known as "she" as "he" and probably would use "they" as a workaround. The fact a man has been sacked for doing that, I find quite frightening tbh. Pronouns have always signified a person's sex to me, nothing to do with gender. I don't even believe we have genders, I believe we have personalities. Some of us are more what we designate as "masculine" than others and some are more "feminine", but regardless our sex is what it is and what it always will be.

So delighted to fire a nice polite man who hasn’t actually been rude or discriminatory in any way. Glad I don’t work for you!

Yes it is worrying Bloopblaableep.

I hope I'd find it easier to use a new name for someone than to say she/he, and then just always refer to them that way.

But even that would probably have me dithering and "deadnaming" them half the time. I'm rubbish when people change names when they get married, or get haircuts or something. (I don't recognise my own husband when he gets his cut at first!)

I was recently chatting with a woman on FB who said she is terrified of losing her job after expressing GC views on workplace online groupchat. No actual trans people were involved, just all coworkers totally bought into TWAW mantra. They now accuse her of bigotry and creating hostile environment.

So you acknowledge they were ‘completely polite and pleasant’ and you still fired them? Jesus, what kind of totalitarian organisation do you work for?

@Sexnotgender

So delighted to fire a nice polite man who hasn’t actually been rude or discriminatory in any way. Glad I don’t work for you!

Do you not think it's rude to refuse to use a person's name, when you use everyone else's without issue? "James, Rebecca and the programmer created xyz" "the programmer provided Duncan with xyz" even when said programmer is in the room!? If someone did that to you, and no one else, you would be fine with it?

Struggling to see how feminist supportive action could meet the definitions of unlawful discrimination within the equality act 2010 op.

Sex is a protected characteristic. It was the very first protected characteristic way back in 1975.

If you are polite and pleasant & behave reasonably then can't really see how you end up in any trouble. Also if you try to assert your own position and are then treated less favourably you may well have protection under that act.

"I feel very uncomfortable now that single sex toilet facilities for women have been removed. I note that single sex toilet facilities are still available for men. I believe that this discriminates against women. Women are entitled to single sex toilets please reinstate them. Thank you." Nothing there to get you into trouble. Plenty to cause the employer to think again.

By all means provide somewhere for those who identify as female but who are male or those who are transgender but not at the expense of single sex toilet provision for women.

There are several angles to go on here. Starts with male toilets still being single sex, taking women's toilets away and why they haven't just provided a third set of toilets if they want to provide those now.

@Ohalrightthen you’re wasting your time with these posters. They’re determined to reframe this discrimination as politeness. As someone who’s not white, their arguments are all too familiar to me. They’re trying to get out of assigning guilt.

At a previous company we were told very clearly to watch what we said on social media as somebody had been sacked for discriminatory language.
Not sure what they said but on that basis, If someone was transphobic, I can imagine they’d be sacked!

You sound like you have been posting Transphobic stuff online? And are scared😂

@AlexaShutUp

I would certainly discipline someone for discriminatory behaviour. However, I would not take it as a given that someone being called a TERF had necessarily behaved in a discriminatory way. If they had merely expressed gender critical opinions in a respectful manner, then I would consider that they were entitled to those opinions.

This.

@Moondust001

Genuinely concerned how much reach do the TRAs have.

So this isn't "another trans thread", but you have leapt to the conclusion that the only possible people who might complain about transphobia are TRA's. Yeah, right.

For the record, (and I am not a TRA, nor am I trans) as a manager, if someone reports any offensive or abusive behaviour by someone else, whoever the complainant or the accused, then I carefully investigate the circumstances of that complaint and come to a conclusion and an outcome within the grievance and disciplinary polices as laid down by my employer. Every grievance or disciplinary, no matter what it is about, arises from a specific set of circumstances, and I would take everything into account. I do not have, not do my employers (public sector) any "pre-decided" answers. That would be entirely wrong.

In this set of circumstances, for example, I would consider that you deliberately went out of your way to provoke a specific response whilst denying it was your intention. Similar to the "I'm not a racist but..." defence. At the very least you would get some words of wisdom about not being deliberately goading, and how your actions impact on others and reflect on your employer. Does that help? Not that you care, because that isn't the point, is it?

This. 100x this.