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Can school exclude over toileting?

77 replies

Imadehimlikethat · 27/09/2020 13:18

Just that really.
DS is 5. Still not toilet trained. In year 1.

He said he can't feel when it's coming, doc thought constipation so have meds. Immediately cleared him out so we adjusted the dose and now one soft poo daily. Def no more blockage as we can tell.

He still won't tell us when he needs to go. Shows no interest in learning. Will sit on the loo when I tell him to and can't change his own nappy but requires some promoting still.

His scho report last year (just received) was blah blah fine but I expect him toilet trained in Sept. It's now nearly Oct and were no closer.

Rewards don't work.

Obv this is about our shot parenting but I don't know how to rectify that.

I'm wondering if at some point school will just refuse to have him (mainstream) and of they would involve social services?

OP posts:
Prokupatuscrakedatus · 27/09/2020 13:27

Our GP told us that the feeling of knowing when to go is in parts regulated by a hormone and if that is not yet there/ underdeveloped / levels are not right there would be problems. The child in question was 8.

diavlo · 27/09/2020 13:30

Is this for wee and poo?

ChristmasinJune · 27/09/2020 13:37

You have my sympathy, I have an 8 year old who is in a similar position re poo, but not in nappies.

No they can't exclude him and should support you in a plan to get him out of nappies. What happens if you just take the nappies away?

What I do know is that just clearing the blockage isn't a solution because long term constipation actually stretches the bowel and reduces sensation. Getting into a good toilet routine helps. If he's doing one soft poo a day shouldn't this be manageable without nappies? Is the time regular? If so, can you work with school staff to make sure that he's taken and asked to sit for a while at a certain time of the day?

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Imadehimlikethat · 27/09/2020 13:38

@diavlo

Is this for wee and poo?
Yes
OP posts:
Imadehimlikethat · 27/09/2020 13:40

@Prokupatuscrakedatus

Our GP told us that the feeling of knowing when to go is in parts regulated by a hormone and if that is not yet there/ underdeveloped / levels are not right there would be problems. The child in question was 8.
I thought that was just at night?
OP posts:
Kanaloa · 27/09/2020 13:40

I don’t think they could exclude him because of this. They will probably put some kind of support plan in place for him so he isn’t at a disadvantage because of this. If you let them know he is seeing a doctor and it’s possibly a medical issue I’m sure they will be sympathetic. If he can’t feel when he needs to go I’m not sure what you can really do other than sit him on the toilet regularly when you think he might go.

whatsleep · 27/09/2020 13:41

How sad that you feel this is down to bad parenting. Ask your GP to refer you to a specialist (there are clinics at the hospital for incontinence in children). Constipation can cause all kinds of problems including soiling so it sounds like you need more help than just being given stool softeners. It sounds more like a medical issue rather than parenting so please don’t beat yourself up over this. There are lots of things a specialist could investigate for instance it could be an intolerance to something. Please ask your GP for more help and speak to school and explain you are doing all you can.

Imadehimlikethat · 27/09/2020 13:43

What happens if you just take the nappies away? He piddles on the floor. He's also pooed pants

If he's doing one soft poo a day shouldn't this be manageable without nappies
It's vaguely the same time, after school. Sometimes it's on the school run, which is a 20 minute walk, so I'd say it's within an hour?

OP posts:
bestbefore · 27/09/2020 13:46

Have you looked at www.eric.org.uk/ at all? They might be able to advise

thedifferentlive · 27/09/2020 13:46

@Imadehimlikethat

What happens if you just take the nappies away? He piddles on the floor. He's also pooed pants

If he's doing one soft poo a day shouldn't this be manageable without nappies
It's vaguely the same time, after school. Sometimes it's on the school run, which is a 20 minute walk, so I'd say it's within an hour?

That must be difficult for both of you. If he cannot feel, definitely speak with the doctor to be referred.
AlexaShutUp · 27/09/2020 13:49

It has nothing to do with shit parenting, I'm sure. It doesn't sound as if you just haven't tried. More likely to be due to some kind of SEN/medical issue, I'd have thought, or simply a case of him developing according to his own timetable.

I understand that it's challenging for the school, but they need to make reasonable adjustments for him. They might be able to require that you (or someone else) goes in to change his nappy though, which would be difficult if you have to work.

SkepticalCat · 27/09/2020 13:50

@Imadehimlikethat

No, they cannot exclude your child over toiletting. See this website, which is really helpful:

www.eric.org.uk/help-at-school-faqs#:~:text=No%20they%20can't.,trained%20-%20is%20considered%2

CaptainMyCaptain · 27/09/2020 13:50

You said they put in his report they were 'expecting' him to use the toilet by September. Did they use this exact wording or was it intended as a target? As part of the eyfs assessment he would have to be toilet trained to achieve the Expected level of development. It's possible you are misunderstanding the Teacher's intention here. You need to talk to her and discuss how to move forward with this and might need to involve your GP or other specialist. It is in everyone's interest, not least your child's, to sort this problem out.

MythicalBiologicalFennel · 27/09/2020 13:50

No, they can't refuse, although some schools will make it sound as if they can. Like a pp said they should support him.

Love51 · 27/09/2020 13:51

If he's 5 and daytime soiling he needs a referral to the continence clinic. School should be checking if you have this, and offering support. They absolutely cannot exclude due to this.

SkepticalCat · 27/09/2020 13:51

From the above website:

  1. My child is still in nappies. Can a school deny their admission?
No they can't. The Equality Act 2010 states that schools must not discriminate against or disadvantage disabled children or those with special educational needs. A delay in achieving continence - or not being toilet trained - is considered a disability. It is therefore not acceptable for a school to refuse or delay admission to children who are not yet continent.

The Children and Families Act 2014 places a statutory duty on schools to support pupils with medical conditions, including bladder and bowel problems. If a child has an identified continence issue which won't be resolved before they start school (whether related to toilet training or not), the school cannot refuse entry.

Schools must work to support those children in the school environment so they can play an active role in school life, remain healthy and achieve their academic potential. Schools should also avoid putting pressure on parents/carers of children who are having accidents to send them in wearing a nappy 'just in case' an accident should occur. Schools and parents/carers should work together to identify an appropriate containment option such as a small pad in the child's pants or washable absorbent pants.

Read our blog about schools and medical conditions.

  1. My son, who has recurring constipation and often soils his pants, starts school in September. What should the school do to help?
It’s important to let the school nurse and the teaching staff know that your son suffers from constipation and soiling before he starts school. Talk to the school about setting up an Individual Health Care Plan (IHCP) to manage your son’s constipation. The IHCP will set out a proactive toileting programme which focuses on regular supervised toilet visits rather than solely dealing with soiling accidents. It’s not enough for your son simply to be given regular access to the toilet – young children with constipation need to be supervised when going to the loo.

The IHCP should also ensure your son’s constipation and soiling is managed discretely and sensitively so that it doesn’t become apparent to other children.

StanfordPines · 27/09/2020 13:52

The school can’t refuse him.
Get armed with doctors reports etc and hopefully he should get a care plan.

ChristmasinJune · 27/09/2020 13:53

Oh ok wee as well, that does make it trickier.
Yes I'd second Eric, they do vibrating watches that remind the child to just go and try in the loo every hour regardless of signals.
Also if you haven't already then ask to be referred to the continence team.
School can't exclude you but they need to be helped to understand to see that this is a problem, not just a family "laziness" issue.

You're not shit parents, please don't say that. Your child has an issue with toileting, others will have issues with reading, writing, making friends or sleeping at night. It's just the way it goes.

Imadehimlikethat · 27/09/2020 13:54

If you let them know he is seeing a doctor and it’s possibly a medical issue I’m sure they will be sympathetic. The SENCO knows, we have regular chats about it, have done since he started reception.

If he can’t feel when he needs to go I’m not sure what you can really do other than sit him on the toilet regularly when you think he might go. But what if he COULD tell if I was doing something differently, what of he knows bad is just ignoring it because it suits him better to be lazy? I have thinking that, we've always argued of he says he can't then he can't but...

OP posts:
Solasum · 27/09/2020 13:54

If someone takes him to the loo, will he go? As in, could someone at school make sure he is going every break time, and then he might be able to get through without accidents?

SkepticalCat · 27/09/2020 13:56

@AlexaShutUp

It has nothing to do with shit parenting, I'm sure. It doesn't sound as if you just haven't tried. More likely to be due to some kind of SEN/medical issue, I'd have thought, or simply a case of him developing according to his own timetable.

I understand that it's challenging for the school, but they need to make reasonable adjustments for him. They might be able to require that you (or someone else) goes in to change his nappy though, which would be difficult if you have to work.

Also from the Eric website: "It is not generally acceptable practice to ask parents to come into school to change their child after they've wet or soiled themselves."
  1. Are schools allowed to call a parent or carer in to change their child if they've had an accident?
Although school staff should use their discretion and judge each case on its merits with reference to a child’s individual healthcare plan, it is not generally acceptable practice to ask parents to come into school to change their child after they've wet or soiled themselves.

Only one member of staff needs to be present when changing a child, as long as another member of staff is nearby, so it shouldn't be necessary to call in a parent (see answer to question 2).

It is tantamount to abuse to force/allow a child to sit in wet or soiled underwear until their parent or guardian can come in to change them.

For more detail on this and other unacceptable practice, see the statutory guidance on implementing the Children and Families Act.

The Department for Education's statutory guidance on supporting pupils at school with medical conditions states it is not acceptable for schools to:

Prevent pupils from drinking, eating or taking toilet or other breaks whenever they need to in order to manage their medical condition effectively;

Require parents, or otherwise make them feel obliged, to attend school to administer medication or provide medical support to their child, including with toileting issues. No parent should have to give up working because the school is failing to support their child’s medical needs;

Prevent children from participating, or create unnecessary barriers to children participating in any aspect of school life, including school trips, e.g. by requiring parents to accompany the child.

NuzzleandScratch · 27/09/2020 14:00

Just to add to what other have already said, the wee accidents aren't necessarily separate from the poo issue. We're still dealing with long term constipation issues with my dd who is 10, and as well as not feeling the urge to poo, she has something wet herself, which I put down to being blocked up from the constipation. I would therefore focus on ensuring there is still no issue with the constipation, as he may need ongoing meds.

Prokupatuscrakedatus · 27/09/2020 14:01

Imadehimlikethat
It was day and night and she had to take medication. Regettably I cannot ask for the exact diagnosis and medication, because we lost contact.

Haworthia · 27/09/2020 14:01

This is not your fault. Clearly there’s something else going on, whether it’s physiological or behavioural or a combination of the two?

Have you been referred to a paediatrician? Does he have any other issues that concern you?

RaspberryHartleys · 27/09/2020 14:02

Sorry, I'm a little confused. Does he have any SEN issues outside of toileting? Do you believe it is a medical issue or a behavioural one?

It's really tough, obviously he should be getting all the support he needs and accessing education is paramount. Having said that, I do feel for teachers who have to deal with toileting issues rather than their job and for other kids in classes who may be missing out on teaching because the teacher is toileting someone else.

Of course the above doesnt apply if it is a medical or SEN issue but I couldn't work this out from your OP.

Good luck either way!

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