Can school exclude over toileting?

[Imadehimlikethat]

Just that really.
DS is 5. Still not toilet trained. In year 1.

He said he can't feel when it's coming, doc thought constipation so have meds. Immediately cleared him out so we adjusted the dose and now one soft poo daily. Def no more blockage as we can tell.

He still won't tell us when he needs to go. Shows no interest in learning. Will sit on the loo when I tell him to and can't change his own nappy but requires some promoting still.

His scho report last year (just received) was blah blah fine but I expect him toilet trained in Sept. It's now nearly Oct and were no closer.

Rewards don't work.

Obv this is about our shot parenting but I don't know how to rectify that.

I'm wondering if at some point school will just refuse to have him (mainstream) and of they would involve social services?

Does your DS have an EHCP as when we got my DD's we put in it that she was still in nappies and her 1:1 would change them and they also had other TA's on standby in case her 1:1 was not in.

My DD never does poo's at school (or nursery before that) - so they only had to change wet nappies.

She is 7 and still in nappies but does do most poo's in the toilet now but it is still hit and miss with wees I used to get upset about it and blame myself but after talking to her Paediatrician, she made me see that with the diagnosis DD has it is no wonder she is still doubly incontinent.

Please do not blame yourself - and do not listen to others - I got it all especially from grandparents - they soon shut up when we explained what was wrong with our DD, you know your child and you are doing the best for him, you are not ignoring the problem and are being pro-active.

We have just changed her from mainstream to a special school and even though she has been there less than a month the change in her and the relief /support you get from the school is amazing, we are sad we didn't move her earlier (she is year 3)

When she was in mainstream, the school did get support from a special school to put in place things for her and I think it helped them understand better about looking after a child with various disabilities maybe you could suggest that to the SENDCo

Yeah we had good EHCP early really cos he was in 2 year old nursery provision there so they got it all sorted, there was no option at nursery other than a full 121 due to the O2 and speech and poor socialization so they had all the info in abundance.

I will def speak to school again.

He gets speech therapy but that's obv paused ATM, I don't think he really gets any extra learning support as such as he's holding his own.
He's still quite young for his age compared to his peers and his behaviour can be hard at times, sudden explosions of emotion when he doesn't get good own way bit none of that at school so he probably is getting an the support there that he needs

You've mentioned that he was non-verbal at 2/3, has some sensory issues and explosions of emotion. Those can be autistic traits. Have you considered that at all? Google will give you lots of
information and lists of traits/behaviours to look out for.

knowing friends who's kids are in SEN schools locally, we wouldn't qualify

Considering his medical needs alone, he should qualify. Don’t get me wrong, it can be a huge HUGE battle with the local authority, who will tell you that his needs can be met in mainstream. They always say that because it saves them money. It’s never about which setting is best for the child. You can fight that if you want to. There are lots of organisations out there who can assist you with the legalities. Again, that might not be something you want to pursue right now, but it’s a consideration for the future. Clearly, your SENCO isn’t quite on board with your son’s incontinence and feels like putting a time frame in place to getting him toilet trained (which is pretty outrageous tbh) which might continue to be a sticking point and you might get fed up with it.

Ive heard good things about these organisations when it comes to help and advice around schools and SEN provision.

www.ipsea.org.uk/
www.sossen.org.uk/

School must make reasonable adjustments to meet his medical needs, including toileting. An individual member of staff can volunteer, but they can not be required to undertake the tasks needed to meet his needs unless it is in their job description. This is school's problem to sort and they should have more than one 1:1 trained, to cover staff absence (especially at present so the Covid bubbles are not compromised by moving staff).

If DC is happy and making progress in mainstream school, you do not have to move him to special school, and his current school can not exclude him or treat him less favourably than other children based on his needs, i.e. he can not be excluded from any school activities or trips because of his toileting needs. This is true of any school: primary, secondary, mainstream or special.

If Health are not providing you with pads/ nappies for him, the school nurse should be able to arrange this, or signpost you to whoever can do so in your area. He should have an Individual Health Care Plan which documents his medical needs, including toileting needs (which is not the same as an EHCP, which he may also have, given his other needs).

Google the government guidance on Managing Medical Conditions in Schools, which outlines what everyone's responsibilities are in situations like this.

With regard to the end of year report, you could ask the Headteacher for it to be reissued without the comment about being out of nappies by September. You would need medical evidence (consultant or doctor's letter or clinic report) that this is beyond you and your DC's control. Tell the HT it's not an appropriate (SMART) educational target as it is not attainable. If he/she refuses and you wanted to pursue this, you need to follow the school's complaints procedure, which they must give you if you request it.

Sorry lots of things being thrown at you, but have you considered coeliac Disease? My son was very hard to toilet train and we had many issues, I took him to doctor as preschool suggested I go and get him checked and, after testing, ended up with a diagnosis of coeliac Disease (no one else in family has it so total surprise). It was explained that in some cases their need to toilet is so urgent when coeliac is not controlled that they often don’t feel the urge until it’s too late. My son had no other classic symptoms of coeliac so it can be tricky to spot. Some drs arent clued up on it at all so could be you need to push it quite hard if you feel this could be a possibility.

Sorry for you OP but also really sorry for the teachers who have to deal with this. I'm not a primary school teacher but I imagine that year 1 teachers really didn't sign up for nappy changing 5 year olds on top of everything else they have to do.

It sounds like you have all the things in place with school, if this is an issue mentioned in his EHCP then they can't simply say they are not going to change him. If for some reason it's not specified (and I know how hard we had to push for things to be made clear and tied down) push for it at the next review.

Its perhaps harder with him being I nappies, but the first thing the continance nurse asked when DS was referred was for us to keep a diary for a few days of his drinks (what, how much and when) and his output (yes,a fun few days with a measuring jug!).

She quickly spotted that at least part of his difficulties was due to a small bladder capacity, and he was given some medication which he took for a year or so which really helped. I don't know that he's ever likely to be someone who can "hold on" though, the sensation is still very late, so now he has permission to leave class whenever he needs.

Definitely have a look round the ERIC website, as there are foods and drinks which can irritate the bladder and add to the problem, we certainly noticed a difference here when we cur out some of them.

As a ASN supply classroom assistant part of my duties was to assist a 5 year who was still in nappies in mainstream school, 2 of us had to be with him when in the toilet and there was no changing facilities you had to change him standing up in a disabled toilet. I am sorry to hear that your son is having so many problems for could you try pull ups it really helped the little boy and was so much easier to change him, before I left he was able to go to the toilet himself. Good luck OP I hope you get the support you need from the school.

@doctorhamster

You've mentioned that he was non-verbal at 2/3, has some sensory issues and explosions of emotion. Those can be autistic traits. Have you considered that at all? Google will give you lots of information and lists of traits/behaviours to look out for.

Certainly a few years ago anyone who read about him and, bit discounted it when they meet him. He had an op at 10 months and he didn't speak after that, no bake, anything so there's a source of the speech issues. Sensory food issues came from then too. Bottle ascertain prior to food aversion stemmed from a chest infection at 4 months but he weaned fairly well until the operation. I say explosion of emotion rather than meltdown because I can get him out of it after a while but it's like in that moment the cork pops, he'll snack himself on the face and scream and stamp bit I'm sure if I have in he'd calm down and even without that I can cuddle and talk him down. School I think would mention it if they had any concerns and none of the paediatric drs we've seen have queried out after meeting him. But I do understand why you'd ask

@Greenleaves21

Sorry lots of things being thrown at you, but have you considered coeliac Disease? My son was very hard to toilet train and we had many issues, I took him to doctor as preschool suggested I go and get him checked and, after testing, ended up with a diagnosis of coeliac Disease (no one else in family has it so total surprise). It was explained that in some cases their need to toilet is so urgent when coeliac is not controlled that they often don’t feel the urge until it’s too late. My son had no other classic symptoms of coeliac so it can be tricky to spot. Some drs arent clued up on it at all so could be you need to push it quite hard if you feel this could be a possibility.

Was that just for poos tho?

@nostaples

Sorry for you OP but also really sorry for the teachers who have to deal with this. I'm not a primary school teacher but I imagine that year 1 teachers really didn't sign up for nappy changing 5 year olds on top of everything else they have to do.

You're right they didn't, his 121 is an absolute start, but I can't home school him and I can't sit outside from 9-3 every day

@madmumofteens

As a ASN supply classroom assistant part of my duties was to assist a 5 year who was still in nappies in mainstream school, 2 of us had to be with him when in the toilet and there was no changing facilities you had to change him standing up in a disabled toilet. I am sorry to hear that your son is having so many problems for could you try pull ups it really helped the little boy and was so much easier to change him, before I left he was able to go to the toilet himself. Good luck OP I hope you get the support you need from the school.

He's in pull ups. 121 takes him to the loo, he goes on and takes his trousers and pull up down, wipes himself, puts his pull up on and then press his trousers on. There's bits of that she has to help with, more if it's a poo, but as I said above, I can't home school him. I do try to make sure she knows how much we appreciate her and when we found out we'd got her again this year, to pass on to the SENCO and to get how pleased I was.

Sorry OP missed the bit about pull ups that's great you've got 121 for him we gave out reward stickers as well he was so pleased with himself and I was more than happy to help! I hope things improve please try not to stress there is support out there 💐

Thank you

It is just a suggestion but have you tried those. www.bambinomio.co.uk/products/potty-training-pants-5-pack?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsO2B8P2J7AIVUubtCh3eCgFdEAAYAiAAEgLbHPD_BwE

That might give him some idea about underwear but will give the comfort if he will not hold it. It might be the first stage of changing from pull-ups.

When was your EHCP last reviewed? Is he still under the care of a paediatrician?
I wouldn't rule out ASD - the spectrum is very broad, and at that age no-one even rally spotted my DD had any issues (although I can see the tell tale signs looking back).
There are a wide variety of special schools out there. And let's be honest if the school tried to exclude him for his toileting the LA would have to find him a suitable provision (which might be private) and fund his transport costs. Are you claiming all the benefits you need? DLA?
Maybe pop into the SN boards, there are very knowledgeable people around.

Last term, it has been reviewed since it was done first, not sure when it's die again, lockdown has thrown us all out i think.
School have thus far been good, I just had a panic o think and I constantly feel like such a failure.

Add in a new "don't like school" and the temper tantrums (a good full 5 minutes hysterics on the pavement because I wouldn't go back and let him do his special dance on a certain spot and then all the rest of the way home!!)and I just feel quite crap.

We did 3 wees in the loo today. O timed one (15 minutes from having a drink), I called a "tell" and then he told me one altho he had a slight accident as he titivated for too long. Maybe his brain needs time to learn the sensation of he's been constipated since he was 2ish (he always poos but it's very hard and bad mom didn't know that was a bad thing as he's never complained).
I'm gonna ask school to keep an eye and accept he's not going to wait till breaktime if they want him to use the loo not his pull ups. It's hard cos the other kids obv can wait now and I don't know how you teach kids to wait!

I’d really encourage you to join the Facebook group Movicol Mummies. It’s an incredibly knowledgeable and supportive community for these issues and people are full of advice about getting schools to play ball.

I'll have a look thanks

You really need some Mum friends (even if just virtual) who have children with SN. They will understand the meltdown because you wouldn't let him do his dance - and will understand why you let a small child "dictate" to you by going back to let him do it. The same rules don't apply and sometimes you have to do whatever it takes to stay sane and get through the day.

I’m a primary school teacher and let me reassure you there’s a big difference in parents who can’t be bothered and parents who are trying everything and it not working. Speak to the SENCO, make yourself a priority by keep getting in touch. Year 1 and not toilet trained needs looking at but doesn’t mean you’re a bad parent.

@MollyButton

You really need some Mum friends (even if just virtual) who have children with SN. They will understand the meltdown because you wouldn't let him do his dance - and will understand why you let a small child "dictate" to you by going back to let him do it. The same rules don't apply and sometimes you have to do whatever it takes to stay sane and get through the day.

I do, but we're the round peg that doesn't for in the square or triangle. My friend with kids with SEN all have kids with far worse disabilities, and my friends at school all have typical kids. So I don't know whether the temper tantrum is bad behaviour, being 5 or something else

Nope they cannot exclude him. I have read stories that parents have had to go over to the school and clean their child up in such circumstances which I'm not sure would be ideal going into school at current times but no they cannot exclude him.

My son has ASD and was in nappies all the time until January then he was supplied absorbent pants from the co finance services. Since lockdown he is now in regular pants. He is 7 and just started year 3.

His school, paediatrician a d the continence service have been great. My son just decided to do it. I just had to be patient. Being autistic everything is on his terms.

Your child will get there eventually whatever age that will be.
School can not exclude or make life difficult for you. Be brave and dont let them bully you or make you feel guilty. Thats why schools have teaching assistant, 1 to 1 etc to provide help for whatever need that child has.

You dont need to make yourself available either to rush to school for clean ups. Staff should be provided with correct ppe and get on with it. My son's school used part of his funding to buy a changing bed and steps up to protect staff from physical injury.