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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Black section on MN

999 replies

PatricksRum · 09/09/2020 03:16

I think it would be great if Mumsnet could make a black parents section/ section for black users.

OP posts:
EasynowPatrick · 11/09/2020 13:19

L

OverTheRainbow88 · 11/09/2020 13:20

The fact that this thread had to be blocked over night shows the need for a safe thread For black people .

EasynowPatrick · 11/09/2020 13:24

I think we’ve had a lot of opinions from those that don’t like the idea of the black section/the op. Let’s try and get this back on track. The posts meant to derail only work if they are responded to.

Can we now focus on discussing what the sections might be or indeed the merits of just one board until we see what content is discussed more often?

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

EasynowPatrick · 11/09/2020 13:26

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of starting without subsections. It’d make it easier to see all discussion threads at a glance and be involved in contributing to them.

AMemeByAnyOtherName · 11/09/2020 13:29

I'm very happy to do that. I have thought that one board might be a better idea, but then I realised that it would be too broad and encourage more criticism from people who think it's just black people wanting to talk to other black people about issues that concern anybody and everybody.

I definitely think it would be better to decide on four or fewer main topics specific to the black community, and then perhaps a miscellaneous section until more demand is revealed.

PersephonePromotesEquanimity · 11/09/2020 14:14

I definitely think it would be better to decide on four or fewer main topics specific to the black community,

Just a small point, made in the assumption that we are all hoping to move towards a better understanding - there is no "black community", any more than there is one homogenous "white community".

Politicians and news presenters are fond of using the term "community leaders" when referring to non-white people. In relation to my own life I have no idea what this means. I am nearly six decades old, English, hopelessly over-educated and not a follower of any religion. So unless by "community leader" they mean either the head of the Oxbridge college to which I am attached, or the current thread starter on the Archers thread - such a term is meaningless. And, I suspect, intended to portray "the other" squatting in a collection of huts under a bypass.

I don't know any other non-white posters, lurkers or other interested parties on MN. We are not a "community", we are all individuals.

needaMNnamegenerator · 11/09/2020 14:15

I hope you don't mind me sticking my oar in as I'm not black, but I do have some digital design experience and would like to offer my support - please feel free to take my advice or ignore it as you see fit!

I think as it's new, it's probably best to start with one board, divided up into threads, like craicnet or scotsnet for example. Then you can have a range of threads under it and they can grow organically. You will likely find you get regular threads running - eg on S&B or education or whatever interests the users of the board.

You could ask MNHQ to pin important threads.

I'd be tempted to advise against starting off with lots of boards under a new section like the feminist section for example - as in practice, despite Feminism being one of the busiest sections on the site, the vast majority of the traffic is in Feminist Chat board I believe, the other boards are a bit tumbleweed really, last time I looked at them anyway.

The reason being - if you start off with one board and it's brilliantly popular then you could always ask MNHQ to expand it. But if you over-segment (as Mumsnet did with Mumsnet local, sadly) then some of the sections risks ending up underused and it may look a bit sad and unloved.

Unless, I suppose, you're convinced you have huge numbers upfront and a clear idea of what those sections should be, in which case ignore me!

Good luck with it, I hope it goes well!

Dastardlythefriendlymutt · 11/09/2020 14:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DeRigueurMortis · 11/09/2020 15:04

@needaMNnamegenerator

I hope you don't mind me sticking my oar in as I'm not black, but I do have some digital design experience and would like to offer my support - please feel free to take my advice or ignore it as you see fit!

I think as it's new, it's probably best to start with one board, divided up into threads, like craicnet or scotsnet for example. Then you can have a range of threads under it and they can grow organically. You will likely find you get regular threads running - eg on S&B or education or whatever interests the users of the board.

You could ask MNHQ to pin important threads.

I'd be tempted to advise against starting off with lots of boards under a new section like the feminist section for example - as in practice, despite Feminism being one of the busiest sections on the site, the vast majority of the traffic is in Feminist Chat board I believe, the other boards are a bit tumbleweed really, last time I looked at them anyway.

The reason being - if you start off with one board and it's brilliantly popular then you could always ask MNHQ to expand it. But if you over-segment (as Mumsnet did with Mumsnet local, sadly) then some of the sections risks ending up underused and it may look a bit sad and unloved.

Unless, I suppose, you're convinced you have huge numbers upfront and a clear idea of what those sections should be, in which case ignore me!

Good luck with it, I hope it goes well!

I agree with you.

I posted similar on the thread in Site Stuff and have copied here as food for thought.


OP, put simply if black users of MN want a dedicated topic I see no reason not to provide it.

That said some thoughts/suggestions that I hope you'll take in the spirit of helpfulness that I post in.

Firstly, remember MN is a business.

Opening a new topic costs money to moderate and you're asking this at a time where many business (including MN) have been adversely impacted by Covid.

MN make money via advertising and they make the most money from the topics with the most visitors.

We've recently seen MNHQ cleaning up low traffic topics because they are not viable to maintain.

As such I'd caution you against a Black umbrella with sub topics to begin with.

If want this area of the site to take off you need to demonstrate its popularity and the more hits you can collate on one topic the better. By starting with a long (or even short) list of sub topics you stand to dilute its impact as it organically builds an audience.

As long as users are clear in their subject line it won't be an issue to see posts of interest to other visitors to the area.

This approach also means that rather than asking users now for a list of sub topics that may/may not take off, you can monitor the main topic and see what "categories" of posts it's attracting and their volume.

From that you are in a far better position to lobby MNHQ for sub topics based on actual user behaviour and interests having proven there is a market for them that is sustainable from business perspective.

There have been numerous references to ScotNet/CraicNet in this thread and I think it's a reasonable comparison, however only in the context that neither of these topics have sub topics.

Asking for MNHQ to "replicate" the most popular site level topics (such as style and beauty) for example is unlikely to wash from a business perspective because you're asking MN to de-value those topics by splitting their user base and thus capacity for revenue generation.

It's by proving you can gain additional traffic under a Black topic for specific black S&B threads (as an example) because users would not have posted in the main topic that you can you create a reasonable case for a specific sub.

Lastly I don't think it's reasonable to ask for Black moderation.

Again from a business perspective this opens floodgates that are not business viable.

MNHQ can't fund only feminist mods for FWR or mods with teen children for the teenagers topic and so on.

If you want this to succeed and not be a short lived experiment (and I do support the concept) then I think you need to be realistic about what you ask for and be prepared for this grow organically and when it does you are in a better position to "up" what you're asking for.

YouJustDoYou · 11/09/2020 15:11

If topics about colour come up in a black section, how as a white mum can I ever learn and teach my daughter not to make the same mistakes

Surprisingly enough, this isn't about you as a white mum and your white daughter. I know that's a bitter ego-blow pill to swallow, but ah well, I'm sure you'll survive.

AMemeByAnyOtherName · 11/09/2020 15:27

@DeRigueurMortis thanks for all the suggestions. Regarding the advertising, there is actually a lot of money in black haircare. Targeted advertising in areas discussing haircare could turn out to be highly profitable for MN.

BraveGoldie · 11/09/2020 15:28

If topics about colour come up in a black section, how as a white mum can I ever learn and teach my daughter not to make the same mistakes

You could proactively bother to learn? By reading or watching the endless resources out there or by actually clicking on the black section and reading and learning something there?

It's not black mumsnetters' job to educate you by posting stuff where they are getting loads of ignorance and racism....

PonDeReplay · 11/09/2020 15:44

@BraveGoldie

If topics about colour come up in a black section, how as a white mum can I ever learn and teach my daughter not to make the same mistakes

You could proactively bother to learn? By reading or watching the endless resources out there or by actually clicking on the black section and reading and learning something there?

It's not black mumsnetters' job to educate you by posting stuff where they are getting loads of ignorance and racism....

I’m with you on this @BraveGoldie. There is often a lot put onto black people’s shoulders - dealing with micro-aggressions, as well as educating people who are ignorant.

That’s why there is a real need for allies / supporters, as well as a need for people like the ‘white mum’ mentioned to take responsibility for educating themselves. It’s not on black people to educate you. Black people already have enough to deal with!

DolphinsAndNemesis · 11/09/2020 15:45

I really don't think issues of advertising and revenue should be taken into consideration in the creation of this board specifically, when I assume they have not been part of the calculus when other boards have been introduced. This new board would meet a need that is currently not being adequately addressed. It seems that MNHQ are open to the idea and this thread shows that many MNers support the concept. (Some don't, of course. This thread has also demonstrated clearly that the problem of racism is not going away any time soon.) I think MNHQ should respond to the request by creating a board, just as they have in the past in response to analogous suggestions from other users.

Thank you for starting this thread, @PatricksRum.

AthelstaneTheUnready · 11/09/2020 15:56

I think it's a good idea, not that it's any of my business.

Nobody tells cat lovers, or fashion lovers, or scottish people, or SEN parents they can't group around their own concerns. Primarily so they're not derailed by people not interested or even hostile to their conversations.

Why can't the same apply to any group who ask for their own corner.

Hope you get the space, @PatricksRum

PatricksRum · 11/09/2020 15:58

Again from a business perspective this opens floodgates that are not business viable.

That isn't my concern. I'm a customer. I don't work for HQ.

I've asked for a board, HQ quickly responded saying they would follow through.

A black moderator would still be great, regardless of the creation of this topic.
Would prefer an ethnic minority to moderate it.

Your entire post isn't relevant to our discussion of the board.

OP posts:
PatricksRum · 11/09/2020 16:02

Saying that though, the way that HQ (in particular, Hebe) have already moderated these threads have been excellent. Their no tolerance attitude has been amazing. And I feel we are really being listened to.

OP posts:
PatricksRum · 11/09/2020 16:03

@DolphinsAndNemesis

I really don't think issues of advertising and revenue should be taken into consideration in the creation of this board specifically, when I assume they have not been part of the calculus when other boards have been introduced. This new board would meet a need that is currently not being adequately addressed. It seems that MNHQ are open to the idea and this thread shows that many MNers support the concept. (Some don't, of course. This thread has also demonstrated clearly that the problem of racism is not going away any time soon.) I think MNHQ should respond to the request by creating a board, just as they have in the past in response to analogous suggestions from other users.

Thank you for starting this thread, @PatricksRum.

Totally agree with your entire post
OP posts:
needaMNnamegenerator · 11/09/2020 16:03

Lastly I don't think it's reasonable to ask for Black moderation.

Again from a business perspective this opens floodgates that are not business viable.

MNHQ can't fund only feminist mods for FWR or mods with teen children for the teenagers topic and so on.

We've already seen from this thread, sadly, that there are a whole lot of people on MN who have issues with this new area. Hopefully once it's up and running they'll at least bugger off and leave you all to your own devices if they can't be supportive from a distance.

But - I wonder if there needs to be a clear moderation on what isn't acceptable on this new forum to ward off some of the inevitable trolls
/ racism both conscious and unconscious. Kind of like the feminist section has its own moderation rules, except set in agreement rather than forced upon the board.

If MN don't have the resources to supply black moderators, could a compromise be that the moderation rules for this section are drawn up in consultation with a core group of black women driving the new area (or with the board as a whole)? That way, although not moderated by black MNHQers all the time, they would at least be moderating in agreement with the board.

As to whether this is needed - you could have a look at MNs moderation policy and see if you think it covers the policy you'd need.

Of course, you could just go for it and hope for the best - as you'll find out once it gets going whether more moderation than the standard boards is needed. (I hope it won't, but sadly this thread suggests some people might indeed need certain things SPELLING PUT IN BIG LETTERS )

needaMNnamegenerator · 11/09/2020 16:05

(I hope my support is helpful, please ignore if not! Will shut up now!)

PatricksRum · 11/09/2020 16:05

@needaMNnamegenerator

I hope you don't mind me sticking my oar in as I'm not black, but I do have some digital design experience and would like to offer my support - please feel free to take my advice or ignore it as you see fit!

I think as it's new, it's probably best to start with one board, divided up into threads, like craicnet or scotsnet for example. Then you can have a range of threads under it and they can grow organically. You will likely find you get regular threads running - eg on S&B or education or whatever interests the users of the board.

You could ask MNHQ to pin important threads.

I'd be tempted to advise against starting off with lots of boards under a new section like the feminist section for example - as in practice, despite Feminism being one of the busiest sections on the site, the vast majority of the traffic is in Feminist Chat board I believe, the other boards are a bit tumbleweed really, last time I looked at them anyway.

The reason being - if you start off with one board and it's brilliantly popular then you could always ask MNHQ to expand it. But if you over-segment (as Mumsnet did with Mumsnet local, sadly) then some of the sections risks ending up underused and it may look a bit sad and unloved.

Unless, I suppose, you're convinced you have huge numbers upfront and a clear idea of what those sections should be, in which case ignore me!

Good luck with it, I hope it goes well!

I definitely think a general black section is best. We could then start threads to begin with:

Black style and beauty
Black businesses
Etc
And then hopefully contribute on the specific threads.

Not that people can't start their own threads of course.

OP posts:
DeRigueurMortis · 11/09/2020 16:06

[quote AMemeByAnyOtherName]@DeRigueurMortis thanks for all the suggestions. Regarding the advertising, there is actually a lot of money in black haircare. Targeted advertising in areas discussing haircare could turn out to be highly profitable for MN. [/quote]

My intent is simply to be supportive and I agree that there is significant potential for such an area of the site to generate additional revenue.

What's important though is that word potential.

You'll only attract advertisers to a specific topic spending at profitable levels once you have a stable and proven user base who drive content (threads and posts) and page views in terms of lurkers viewing but not contributing.

You first have to hit a critical mass to do this - something that will take longer (and may not happen at all) if you dilute the topic in the first place.

In 2018 Mumsnet had 1.3 billion page views from 119 million unique users.

My understanding is the vast majority of that traffic and user content generation is directed to the "big hitting" topics - so AIBU/Chat/FWR/Style and Beauty.

Let's put that in context - between this thread and the one in Site Stuff we are getting towards 1500 posts.

These do not equate to users as some posters have made more than one comment both threads (in fact some users have made many, many posts on both threads).

So let's theorise that this means this subject has probably attracted (from 119 million users) 750 unique users from the MN community (though I think that's possibly over generous).

Of that, a substantial number of posts are from non black users - either supporting the concept or otherwise. Let say around 200? These users would presumably not be generating content on the new sections or driving page views.

So we are left with circa 550 users who we then have to assume support the idea but would also be committed to generating user content that would be varied and interesting enough to attract page views from additional and new users.

Now 550 might sound like a lot but it's not really, especially if their content is diluted over multiple sub sections.

They'd have to be super active (unprecedentedly so) to generate anywhere near the page views to make a credible vehicle for advertisers in and of itself over an umbrella topic.

That's why I'd strongly suggest a single topic that can grow organically, be monitored and a case made for subs based on actual data and user behaviour within that topic.

Another point to make in purely a business capacity is that this request is very much a Black rather than BAME topic.

I make no judgement on that but would point out that it sets a precedent that any other race/ethnicity should be able to demand the same.

As such when asking for this umbrella topic it's not as simple as saying we want 7 (or any other number) subs. The standard has been set for that times however many other such requests are made - that could be tens or hundreds of additional topics, each of which cost money to run and for which there is no real understanding of the financial benefit they might provide.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding negative - I'm not trying to be in the sense I'm supportive of the idea and hope the request for a Black topic is granted and is successful.

What I'm trying to do is offer a level of realism and advice on how that might best be achieved - which I think is to start with a single black topic, encourage as many users as you can to post there and grow it organically.

DeRigueurMortis · 11/09/2020 16:07

Apologies for the bold fail.

PersephonePromotesEquanimity · 11/09/2020 16:09

Saying that though, the way that HQ (in particular, Hebe) have already moderated these threads have been excellent. Their no tolerance attitude has been amazing. And I feel we are really being listened to.

Yes ... I don't know how many other posters spent a large part of yesterday, as I did, reporting the most racist posts. MNHQ were, on this occasion, gratifyingly quick to respond by deleting posts and banning some posters.

DeRigueurMortis · 11/09/2020 16:14

That isn't my concern. I'm a customer. I don't work for HQ.

Actually OP you're not a customer of MN.

Your a user of the site - that's a very different thing.

MN's customers are the organisations that pay for advertising here.

Your entire post isn't relevant to our discussion of the board.

The fact that you don't understand the difference between a user of MN and an customer goes a long way to explaining your comment above.

It's absolutely relevant to consider the financial implications of new topics in the sense that MN is a business not a user community.

I've given my opinion in good faith and as I've previously said I hope you are successful with your request for a black topic and will leave it there.

Swipe left for the next trending thread