If you have genuinely delightful children...

[OhTheTrees]

You know the ones. They're bright (as in, sparky), polite, calm, yet can still have fun...

How did you get that??? What do you do as a parent?

I feel like my kids have real potential to be just delightful and "lovely", but, especially over lockdown, they've been a little too...indulged? They are a bit too loud indoors, a bit too cheeky (not really rude or downright naughty, just a bit too "chummy" with us, taking things too far), they fight more than they should these days... they are so giddy around people having been isolated so long, that now they are almost at the stage of being annoying little show-offs when we do meet up with people...

And i KNOW it is my job to turn this around (and DH, but I'm a sahm so with them a lot more), but it feels like a big task to halt this train before they become actually badly behaved. They are sweet kids, who were gentle and kind babies and toddlers, but i feel like I'm watching them become the kind of kids I don't want them to be, and it's my responsibility!

I was so on it before lockdown, but keeping up 24/7 discipline/ routine has been HARD when we're all shut in together for so long with no break, and i had a baby in lockdown which threw things for a loop as well.

How do i salvage my kids so that they are delightful company for both us at home and the outside world when we re-emerge into society properly?! I'm overwhelmed.

Ages are 5, 2 and coming up to 6 months (though the baby isn't giving us much cause for concern so far )

Luck and personalities.

My son is a joy, never had a bad report card from school, rather the opposite - teachers remarking they wish they had a class full of him (even in nursery).

My daughter is the opposite. Feisty, answers back, if there is a boundary she will try and push it. When my son sat in his high chair and did as he was told, my daughter was feeding Rusks to the DVD player 😩

But I wouldn’t change it for the world. I admire characteristics about each of them. I just try and be as fair as possible and never let on that my son is better behaved or that my daughter is better at fighting for what she believes in. You have to see the positives in having children who are a bit wild - I personally never feel I will have to worry about my daughter, if she fell in shit she would come out smelling of roses. However, I worry about my son. He is so inherently good I fear someone will take advantage of his good nature. Just got to try and work with them on every quirk and help them to be their best selves.

I waited.

Children who are 5 and 2 will be somewhat in people's faces and will struggle to rein themselves in. Yours are too little to worry much about this.

Lockdown parenting is tough. I never had to deal with that. One of my best tools was to take them out and expose them to other people as much as possible so it didn't have to be all about me and their relationship with me, mum-as-entertainer.

Small tip: I usually mentioned my needs rather than their behaviour, even when it might have sounded self-centred. That meant they didn't feel constantly criticised, but were encouraged to think about how their actions affected other people. It also meant they had a model of how to communicate their own needs. Do you mention your feelings and needs?

For example, if we were at the park I wouldn't say, "Time to go home." (That's rather arbitrary, after all. There's no fixed rule about when people leave the park. They could see that other families were still staying.) Instead I might say, "I'm cold. I want to go home," or "It will take a long time to cook dinner because it's lasagna tonight. I want to get started soon so we won't all get hungry and crabby. Plus I am tired."

If they messed around with my good pen and broke it, I wouldn't tell them that they shouldn't have done it. I would say, "I'm really disappointed and angry. That was my favourite pen. I used to enjoy writing with it."

If they had been winding me up and now wanted me to play with them, I would say, "I don't feel like it right now. I am too wound up that you were spraying me with water earlier when I asked you not to. I need some time to calm down."

I didn't really do rules, punishments and rewards. But I made sure they understood how their behaviour affected me and the consequences that had for them.

Both of my teen DDs are delightful, all of my friends and their friends' parents say so. Even I find them to be delightful a lot of the time.
They are also loud, messy, lazy, unmotivated, sparky, cheeky, lovely, fun, demanding, stressful, hard work, hungry, expensive, entertaining, etc. etc.
As parents we don't always get the best of them, it doesn't mean you've failed.

I agree with everyone above. Boundaries, chores from a young age, simple stuff like setting a table, dirty laundry in a basket, taking responsibility for tidying what they have played with.

But also, kindness, understanding that you won't always get on with everyone all the time but you can be polite, cordial. So when your brother is annoying the hell out of you, you walk away, or ask an adult to intervene. It is the same for children in a classroom and then in later life, in a job, there will always be people who annoy you at some point. No physical fighting or name calling is allowed.

That we all do things we don't want to do, like clean a toilet, they need to see adulthood as having responsibility not just going to bed when you want to, watching whatever you want on tv.

As they get older, point out that you don't live with your parents and neither does Dh. That education is important, it opens more doors, offers more opportunities, and at some stage they will move out having secured a decent job. Tell them how much things cost like a holiday, sofa or games console.

Oh and that adults make mistakes, apologise when you get something wrong, explain why it happened if you can. They need to know they are not expected to grow into perfect people.

Manners and showing an interest in what other people are interested in. When Ds1 was about 12 he would tell me that adult conversation was boring and he didn't want to stay in the room when we had guest. I would just sing Thomas the Tank Engine theme to him. That because I loved him, I would watch that shit with him because it was important to him.

Mine are 17 and 14, we have a great laugh with them, I don't allow eye rolling, flouncing or door slamming. I do think a lot is luck but some of it is explaining stuff to them and spending time with them.

That's interesting botch , as i wouldn't particularly say that being extrovert or introvert or whatever would make anyone more or less likely to be "delightful". I think by delightful i mean polite and someone who is not obnoxious and attention seeking or downright rude. There are lots of personality types that can be delightful. I'm not very willing to say "my kids personally is tobe rude and arrogant, so that's just what I'll let them be".

My 2 eldest are very different. One is chirpy and very open and emotional, the other is much more solemn and closed, but i think they could both be delightful if i don't let them turn into brats. Both could be polite, calm and know how to have fun in their own way surely?

It's encouraging to read that others have kids who can be horrors at home but not utterly disgraceful around others - at least i might be able to pretend I've got it all under control...(!) And nice to see that actually there seem to be a lot of lovely kids out there.

Again with my slow typing meaning i missed a load of posts - some really fantastic and encouraging/ motivating advice here. Thank you so much!

I shall start with renewed energy tomorrow (if i stop faffing on mumsnet and actually sleep now that the baby is finally down....)

Thank you for all the tips!

Perhaps I misunderstood delightful to mean charming or endearing?

They are already delightful though, your children. They have an engaged parent who is kind and tries to be consistent. I think the best thing you can do for them is believe in them and like you say, just be firm sometimes. But these are strange times when people are sick of immediate family. They might not be at their best. I wouldn't micromanage beyond holding your line because it could be down to stress and circumstances. With many adults now depressed, it's fair to assume that children are also feeling the pressure and expressing it in a less acceptable way.

I do think extrovert personalities are better at working out what you want and delivering it regardless of their internal climate. Taken to an extreme and combined with a lack of parental engagement with their real feelings and you get a narcissist. Just my opinion!

I agree with Rinder they need clear guidelines and if you say it follow through. The kids that don’t behave at school are the ones that parents say no then five minutes later or less say oh go on then. They say they can’t do anything with them. Some of these children do behave at school when in small groups or behave very well for certain staff. It is because they have respect for them. Children do like clear guidelines because they know what they should be doing and it helps them feel safe.
We brought ours up with lots of fun and laughter. They weren’t spoilt and we never bought them huge presents or masses of gifts. We rarely bought them things in between birthdays and Christmas. We treated them in holidays or a day out at the zoo but gave them the money so they had to consider what they bought. They never whinged in shops.
They were allowed to chose special cereal for their birthday week or on holiday( we went camping in Yorkshire or France) but I never bought them sweets at the check out. They never asked. Luckily my two best friends brought up their families the same so they were all polite children who became lovely adults. DD had a friend who was very spoilt and although she was a little jealous about them going to Disney every year she was appalled at Christmas when her friend had six black bin bags of presents. DD is my fourth child there was 14 years between eldest and youngest. I did notice a shift in parenting between the boys and DD. They all went to a small village school and I noticed quite a few parents let them do what they liked.

This has been the most unusual time for everyone and some rules are bound to have been broken especially as you have had a new baby as well. The five year old is old enough to sit down and be explained to. If your 5 Yr old is starting school soon then that is an ideal time to make changes. You can talk about needing to go to bed early because they need the sleep etc. Firm repeated short instructions if they don’t conform. Make tidying up toys a race buy a sand timer (big ones are better) and a big cuddle reward. They also love collecting rewards so have a jar to put counters or pasta pieces or pegs. The reward could be a special day out, a walk or a comic you can decided at the beginning of each week what the reward is so that you can manipulate it with what you can manage. You will need a short term one at the end of each day but you can have simple ones like choosing the story at bedtime. The two year old will need this as a week is a long time.
I did yell at mine sometimes I don’t know a parent that never shouted.
You are absolutely right they need a parent not a friend. That doesn’t mean you can’t have fun too. You can easily do turn this around as they are so young.

Firm boundaries and not stepping down when you have laid down a consequence.

Time together

Manners... knowing how to sit at a table and to say thank you after goes a HUGE way with people. Knowing to introduce yourself to the parents when you go home to your first boy/girlfriend (you would be surprised how many doesn't)

Fun and enjoyment

Always ensuring they know you are a safe place to go to. Even now mine (who are late teen early 20s) know they can blame something on me and their dad if they want to get out of it. So " my mum/dad," says no" is always acceptable for us as long as I am told I said "no" so I can back them up later.

Time with them... (I know I said this twice)

3 of mine are legally adults. They will all 3 still accept a ruling their dad or I do. If they feel we are unfair they discuss it with us and I do at times change something through what they said. This began when they were in their teens.

However, really it is about time spend and firm but fair boundaries. My oldest says the time to get scared is if mum says " Excuse ME" grins

My dd was and is the model child. I think it's mainly down to what your personalities as parents are and the characteristics they inherit, combined with how well you mange behaviour and your expectations of them, DH and I are both fairly quiet people, easy-going, kind, hard-working and friendly. We are both pleasers, both creative, both sociable and dd has most of these traits too.

I work in a school and you see it so often- as soon as you meet the parents you can see their child is like them. It's not often you get lovely parents with nightmare children- nightmare parents have nightmare children, lovely parents have lovely children.

Op.you're not in an Enid blyton novel and your kids are real people with personalities of their own that have very little to do with you. Mine are now 18, 15 and 12 and I found that as they got older it was actually a relief to drop the Mary poppins act. Mine are all delightful. They're all very different and each has unique strengths and weaknesses but it's a really good plan to learn that good parenting doesn't mean rigid parenting.

Don’t know.. mine are fabulous at home, loving and fun and content but taciturn and aloof and disengaged past the front dooor

It annoys me no end because they’re wonderful children but come across and emotionally abused little waifs.

They’re not

My 4 DC are pretty well behaved, polite and if playing up in public , the "Death stare" wprks a treat!

We've had a few teenager tantrums, incidents and back chat but overall, they are all well behaved and fun to be around ( Excelt this Am when I lost my shit!)

Im pretty strict but fun I think, we have a routine but its been pretty loose over lockdown

@RinderTinderNotRinderGrinder

Immovable boundaries (that move as they get older )

I don’t know if my dcs are as perfect as you describe, but people always comments about how well mannered they are, and they’re always interesting and fun without being cheeky. We joke about with them, but don’t tolerate any overstepping into being rude at any adult. As soon as you start giving way on something it all falls apart.

Say what you mean, don’t ever threaten something you don’t want to follow through with, and then have loads of fun with them. I think kids really like strong boundaries, it helps them know where they stand. Yours are very young so definitely not too late to reset.

My in-laws are always commenting about how good our dcs are compared to their other GC (who I’ll admit are really rude, but I still wonder what they say about us to dh’s siblings). Then they’ll say “Oh go on, you’re being too harsh, let them have that/say that/use that tablet.” They just can’t see that the reason the dcs behave is that they know where they stand.

We’re not horrible disciplinarians I promise! We have a lot of fun together and are all really close.

I think I must have banged my head and wrote this but forgotten I did as it is pretty much exactly what we do and our 3 children (13, 10 and 8) are regularly complimented for their manners, behaviour and happy, outgoing characters. I don't 'pick battles' because I don't want them to think they can get away with the small stuff like giving a bit of cheek or saying no to a chore or small task set. That shit is a gateway drug. Ignore one thing and the big things are less important.

That said we're a happy, loving house and every day is fun and light and we have a laugh. Being silly is regularly on the cards especially by me. It took (and still does take) a lot of hard work and consistency but it's been rewarded tenfold.

I'd say my big two (6&4) are the kids you describe (and the nearly 2yo is falling in line). We often get comments about how well they behave and what lovely kids they are.

I am very hot on manners and behaviour. It is automatic for the big two now to sit and behave when needed, know how to be polite and hold conversation.
Biggest things for us are routines; they like to know what is expected.
Good sleep patterns. Lights out at 7pm and wake at 7am. Toddler has a 2 hour nap after lunch.
Eat well. They can be a bit fussy but will eat balanced and healthy meals with the odd 'cheat meal' of fish fingers or nuggets once a week max.
But ultimately we tell them when we are super proud of them or something they have done/'right choices' they have made. Kids love praise and it really reinforces the behaviours you want to see.
I also make sure they know I am not their for their entertainment. I'll play with them and do activities but if I'm busy doing something or talking to someone then they know they have to wait or entertain themselves. Tbh the big two play beautifully for hours and they're now starting to include the (slightly more feisty!) toddler so I'm hoping it runs off on her too. 🤞🤞😂

Your kids do sound lovely. At the risk of mumsnets combined wrath I’d be be loathe to have too well behaved a child. They should be capable of angelic and loving behaviour and also little sods at times.

I do hammer home please and thank you though. Covers a multitude of sins!

Thank you's are also a huge part of our home. Each child (and adults) will always say thank you for every little thing but (and here's the important bit) they mean it. Every time. One kid off for a packet of crisps and they go into the others rooms to find out if they want one too. If my teen is sticking the kettle on then she offers everyone a cuppa and we all do the same in return. It's probably really corny looking in from the outside but the kindness to each other is really appreciated and they love to get the praise for being nice too.

And I also have the ILs nipping at me every effing time for being too harsh (not tolerating rudeness or them disobeying a command) yet they say all the time how well behaved mine are in comparison to My nieces and nephews! If they approve of my parenting results then they need to shut up about my parenting methods!

Very few 2 year olds are genuinely delightful, and 5 year olds are quite mercurial, they are still really little and can only manage so much really! And these are extraordinary times, you are currently seeing alllll of their behaviour with no ability to offload them at school, soft play, etc. So you'll have a different impression than you used to.

My 8yo DS is typically described as pleasant, sunny, lovely, charming, quiet, gentle by the adults in his personal/domestic life. This is a common theme from toddler days. He's always been that way.

At school he's described as recalcitrant, "a barrister" (talks his way out of any task he's been set), obstructive, difficult, distracting... he gets into playground fights and can be a real horror.

The difference between those two settings - home vs. school - is that at home, his leash is short and he knows his mother is cleverer than him/totally in charge. He can relax into his home life and knows exactly where the boundaries are, so he rarely tests them.

At school, the teachers are barely hanging on to their sanity, struggle to keep order, etc and have noticed that he's ahead cognitively/can read like a champ. So, they basically require very little from him day to day, and let him do whatever he pleases, every so often circling back to assess him - it's all very inconsistent, and he's clever, so he notices this and it annoys him.

So, my DS is constantly rattling the cage, trying to find someone who will tell him "no" at school... the teachers that have a personal relationship with him, who he respects, think he is wonderful. The teachers who require obedience and order, without showing him that they are trustworthy and worth following, think he's the worst.

Based on that experience... it's temperament influenced by environment, isn't it? And the temperament bit is luck, simply luck. You do have control over the environment, but you've also got to sort of let go and let God, there is only so much you can do, because the temperament is still in play.

I have found that for my DS, loads of sleep and rest are required for him to maintain his inner sunniness. He isn't as fussed regarding food, but for some kids, that's the key.

Thanks again for more advice and opinions. This is really helpful. (Baby feeding, so more time to read your wise words).

For those concerned about my expectations, please be assured i don't expect perfection from my 2yr old, or even my 5yr old. It's more, how do undo what I've done, when i know that I've started to let standards slip over lockdown. Like @HouchinBawbags says, i fell like I've started to pick my battles, and let some smaller things slide, and I'm already seeing the consequences, so i want to backtrack now, in an age appropriate way, before things go too far down the wrong path. I feel like I've given them that gateway drug!

So it's not so much that i want the "end result" now, with my young kids, but more that i need to get back on track now, so that in a few years we'll all be in a better place than we otherwise would be.

I'm at a crossroads where i could be screechy mum with kids that ignore me, or i could be calm but firm mum with kids that are nice to be around. I figure if i want the latter, I've got to put the work in now! Lockdown has just slightly pushed me down the wrong path - but hopefully with your examples ringing in my ears I'll be able to sort it out!

My DS1 sounds like your DC OhTheTrees he's bright, and funny, and kind but tbh a tiny bit of a showoff and atm he sounds like 'omgIcantalktopeopleagainletmetellyouathousandthings'

I think he'll mellow out in September when he's back with his peers and can tell them about atoms/monsters/electric cars.

One thing I think we've done well is eating/table manners...I'm Italian and wanted the DC to manage those big/long/stereotypical family meals you see. It was really stressful taking him out when he was 1 or 2 (especially because I never let him have screens) but now he's lovely to eat with at 4 and politely tries to join in with the adults conversation.

I think a lot of it is personality tbh. We have boundaries but I don’t punish my children ever and yet they are kind considerate and never mean. Yes they argue with each other sometimes and such and sometimes need help managing their emotions. They aren’t sweet and talkative with other people simply because they are massively introverted like me and Dh. They have lovely manners and very helpful at home.

I also have a two yr old and he’s an arse because in general two year olds are..

I have one - mine are 6 and 3 and I thought I was an amazing parent due to my incredibly well behaved, funny, confident, brilliant sleeping first child. She is the one that all my friends say they would happily swap their child for etc etc then my second came along and I realised it was just good luck

Luck. I have 4 dcs and if I'd only had 3 of them, would also have attributed it to having good boundaries, being fun etc - but then I have ds2, who is a wonderful child but also identifies strongly with Eeyore.

Clear guidance helps, being authoritative not authoritarian, having the resources or family support to get help and not be totally drained yourself... But really, there is an element of chance and how people are born.

However don't despair, my brother was a nightmare child (suspended regularly, swore at my parents when none of the rest of us dared etc) and is now a lovely bloke with a lovely wife and family, good job, looks after my mum etc. Things can change!

Have you got your firm voice? That’s essential. If you’re always shouty then firm voice won’t work, but it works amazingly if it’s used sparingly.

We don’t tolerate any kind of name calling (of anyone) so if we’re having fun and laughing and one of them calls someone else a name (even in jest), there is instant firm voice “We don’t call each other names, say you’re sorry”. As soon as sorry is said it’s back to the fun. No grudges held by us (even when I feel it). They also always have to say sorry in a nice way (though young children won’t understand it, it’s a good habit to get into). If they won’t then they have to leave the fun until they are ready to say it.

It’s also important for children to learn to play alone (for your sanity). A patient parent is one who isn’t getting constant demands. Maybe try setting out tasks, explaining them and then walking away. It could just be Lego on the floor and “make me a parrot/car/ice cream, I’m doing this, show me it when you’re done”. If they ask how say “I don’t know, what do you think it needs?” Whatever stage they get to be incredibly enthusiastic about it, “You made that all by yourself?! That’s amazing!” Even if they shrug it off, it’s about gradually getting them to make the choices, not always ask you. Sam technique for everything. Remind them they’ve drawn pictures before, tell them you don’t know how to make it better, ask them what they think they could add.

This is obviously aimed at the 5 year old, but you can get the 2 year old involved at a lower level too.

At first it may be that not giving answers takes more time than just helping - it takes time - but eventually you will get to a stage where they come to you after they’ve had a think about what they could do.

Then when they’re there you get them selecting the task and getting what they need. It applies to toys and games too. It’s a skill to play and do things alone, and one that makes life so much more bearable for the parent!