Worried about DD's rituals

[Jourdain11]

I feel a bit bad for posting here, as it seems unfair on DD, but I am worried that I am overreacting and making an issue out of a non-issue.

DD8 lately seems to have developed all these little "rituals" - touching things, going to the toilet multiple times in a row, making little lists. I work in MH (albeit in another area and not with children) and I feel like, over the last few weeks, it's become quite disruptive to her life. A few days ago, she got quite upset and agitated at DH rushing her out of the house because (I think) she hadn't done her things. She also generally seems quite anxious and I've tried to get her talking about it, but she obviously isn't keen.

I don't want to make the mistake of labelling her behaviour as something when it isn't, nor do I want to make her self-conscious, but I feel she's showing OCD tendencies and I am really concerned not to let things get out of control. If she needs help, I want her to get it in a timely way so that this won't take over for her.

DH thinks we should let it be, because it might just "fade away", but my feeling is that it is escalating.

On the other hand, I know it is normal for kids to have some ritualised behaviour, and I am worried about overreacting... which is why I'm posting here, I guess for a neutral and non-involved opinion! Although I appreciate it is difficult when you haven't seen / don't know DD.

As a family, we've had quite a lot of changes and stress recently (who hasn't?) so I guess I am concerned about how this may have affected her.

Thx in advance.

We found this book very useful.
books.google.co.uk/books/about/Freeing_Your_Child_from_Obsessive_Compul.html?id=bAHTgmMCJDYC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y

Thank you, I will definitely take a look. I have some OCD lit, but it's all relating to adults.

Really appreciate it!

If it has become disruptive to her life, then it’s a problem and you’d be right to deal with it, and sooner rather than later. It could all disappear by itself when she goes back to school in September, but on the other hand it could really get in the way of your morning routine and her learning, so I’d try and stop it before then. Work on it now while you’ve got the time.

Are they rituals or just routines? I only ask because I have set routines around a lot of things, laundry, cooking, shopping. Love a list. But I don’t feel i have a problem. But if you think it’s taking over her life then that’s different.

@Ricekrispie22

If it has become disruptive to her life, then it’s a problem and you’d be right to deal with it, and sooner rather than later. It could all disappear by itself when she goes back to school in September, but on the other hand it could really get in the way of your morning routine and her learning, so I’d try and stop it before then. Work on it now while you’ve got the time.

Thank you. I think this is the issue, for DH and I, that we don't want to make a huuuge issue out of something which might naturally disappear in September, but at the same time, I don't want to let it escalate.

I'm worried about the excessive toilet-going, for example. She won't be able to do that at school, and I can imagine it causing distress. I have raised it with her and I don't think there's any physical reason. She just needs to "make sure".

@Tlollj

Are they rituals or just routines? I only ask because I have set routines around a lot of things, laundry, cooking, shopping. Love a list. But I don’t feel i have a problem. But if you think it’s taking over her life then that’s different.

It's not the lists that I'm worried about (I am also a list-lover and I feel bad that she's probably picked this up from me!) but more the level of stress that it seems to be causing her.

There's a book called What to Do When You Worry Too Much that might be good for general anxiety issues, and giving her strategies to help.

There appears to be another in the series (although a different author I think) that is specifically about OCD - I don't know it, and I don't know whether the words OCD are specifically mentioned, or if it just talks more generally about identifying 'stuck thoughts' as the description calls them. It might not be appropriate if you aren't at the stage where she is even acknowledging there is a problem, but if she does agree that some of her thoughts are quite usual, or that she is always 'making sure', it might be an idea to read with her.

www.amazon.co.uk/What-When-Brain-Stuck-What/dp/1591478057?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

OP my Dd7 sounds similar. She is a deep thinker and a very sensitive child. I think her little routines make her feel some comfort a d control over things that possibly worry her. So far nothing seems to be taking over, so I let her do her thing and keep talking. But I am definitely going to see if I can arrange some form of therapy or counselling if things escalate.

As a child I went through a phase of this type of thing. I was terrified that my parents were going to die (no idea why) and I had rituals about touching things or doing things, and if I didn't do them then....my parents would die.

Things such as if I switched a light off, I then had to touch the switch another 4 times. If I lifted a spoon out of the cutlery drawer I had to touch each of the knives, forks and spoons 4 times before I closed the drawer. My number was 4, then it went to 8. So anything I did, I had to do it that amount of times. I was quite young, less than 12 I'd say. I knew what I was doing and one day I thought "I am going to stop this" and I did. It may be like this for your DD, or it may not, and I really don't know what to advise but just to give you a perspective that may be similar to hers.

As an adult now in my forties I do sometimes have those same thoughts but I squash them down and get on with my day. Hope your DD can come through this as easily as I did.

On thinking about it, it was before secondary school so I'd say I was 10 or under.

I believe OCD is a deep rooted desire to regain control over yourself and your environment (or at least part of it). Lots of recent upsets could have triggered this in your daughter. Maybe speak to the GP without her to see if they can advise you? Also be aware anorexia is a type of self controlling behaviour, so if you have worries get help urgently as once OCD habits become ingrained and more difficult to break.

Also work on making her feel secure and give her control over some things in her life if possible?

Thanks very much for the thoughts.

I'm currently having chemo for leukaemia (this started pretty much at the beginning of lockdown) and I'm guessing that it is this which is causing her anxiety, and perhaps her rituals are to keep us "safe". But it may be connected to the general Corona situation too...

I think one of the main things from the book I recommended, is not to enable anything. By allowing themselves to indulge in the rituals, it's reinforcing in their minds that there is something to worry about. Obviously it's not as simple as that, but the book really helped dd to stop her rituals.
When I realised she was counting in even numbers etc, I realised we needed help. The book was great. Although it was aimed at adults helping their kids, I did read out some of the more pertinent and easier to understand bits to 11 year old dd, who took it on board. With little treat incentives to cut things down in baby steps, it didn't take long to stop, because rituals hadn't become too entrenched by tackling it at a fairly early point.

If you can nip it in the bud early, it's so much easier.

oh I've just checked, the What to Do... Stuck thoughts book is by the same author as the other What to Do... Worry book, so that bodes well. They are for primary age children.

I have OCD and used to struggle with the same problems your daughter has with going to the bathroom. I don’t think it will go away on it’s own and if this is OCD it will get a lot worse without intervention. Can you take your daughter to a GP or self refer for CBT?

I wouldn't ignore it. You can address it without it becoming a big deal.
My DD has bouts of anxiety which manifest as intrusive thoughts and some OCD behaviour (mostly around hand washing). The being 'sure' is a bit of a giveaway. Don't panic but that's not a great sign and waiting for normal routines to displace the actions isn't dealing with the root cause.
My DD started quite young and was referred through CAHMS at 8 but with hindsight she'd been struggling with this for a couple of years before that. She's in her teens now and it periodically flares up and we run through again why we have intrusive thoughts/why they become problem etc and this does give her the skills to live with them.
Personally I would help your child with this sooner rather than later.
A self help book is a good place to start. We've been reading a different one this time which I have liked, it's not aimed necessarily at someone with a diagnosis, but where the behaviours are causing distress or impinging on life. Only you can judge if proper help is needed, but DD is able to work it through with some home support now.

Thank you again. I feel like I am right to be worried... but I am struggling to know what to do to help. DH took them out this morning and tried to hurry her along (re. the touching and going to the toilet three times before they left) and she got so stressed out. And then she had a bit of a freak out because she'd taken so long and they weren't going to have time to do all the things on her list. It was just so sad and it didn't seem to make a difference when I said "it doesn't matter if you can't do everything on the list" because clearly to her it did. DD2 and DS (turning 7 and 5) are quite obviously confused and DD2 got huffy about waiting, and wasn't entirely kind, so words need to be had there too I suspect...

Worst of all is I'm back in hospital for chemo on Tuesday and will spend 5 days in, so I want to try to get some plans in place before then... even if just some coping strategies.

Good luck with the chemo.

Thanks. Only 3 to go now if everything goes to plan 🤞 I just feel like a useless mother who isn't able to protect her children properly

Dd saw a child psychologist at 5. She was struggling with me being so ill. It was brilliant. I imagine your other dcs will in other ways. So be aware of this and that perhaps dd1 will take their worries for them. The psychologist talked about a bag of worries. Have a look at this book.... I hope all goes well for you

@Jourdain11

Thanks. Only 3 to go now if everything goes to plan 🤞 I just feel like a useless mother who isn't able to protect her children properly

You’re not useless-you’ve seen your girl’s distress early and are looking to help her. The rituals are not the problem, they are the way of trying to assert some control over anxiety that’s making her feel totally out of control-and with illness, and Covid, there is plenty around. Can you step back beyond the rituals and address her fear? Talk about how it’s perfectly logical and proportionate to feel terrified facing what you are all experiencing at the moment, how it’s not actually of your roles to make all this ok, especially not hers. How you can’t guarantee that it will be ok but that she WILL be ok, that you and DH have got this (insofar as it’s getable). She is safe.

You're not a bad mother and now you've said about your illness, it makes even more sense.
DD's episode that pushed us to get help with was in part triggered by my Mum being very ill. Children handle stress in different ways and ritualised behaviour is a safety mechanism. By not completing the whole process she will feel very responsible for any actions her ritual was supposed to neutralise.
One thing that helped my DD hugely was understanding where her thoughts were coming from and that she had more control than she realised.
The OCD made her very unhappy and I felt horribly guilty for not noticing sooner.
All the very best with your treatment. What your DD is experiencing is not unusual, is more common than you'd think and actually can be helped relatively easily.

You aren't a bad mother. Dd, and you, have got enough on your plates with the illness. Covid is just a huge additional worry. Either on their own would be enough to tip anyone over the edge.

You are trying to get help for her. That's a sign of a good mother.

Yeah, I can tell that not being able to complete a routine or ritual is making her very anxious and I guessed that she is experiencing a "things may go wrong if I don't..." thought process. But she is very unwilling to open up about her fears - although she will fixate on things that seem totally unimportant, but which obviously aren't to her.

I feel awfully responsible. I just wish I was better able to protect the kids from the realities of my illness but it has been difficult, unplanned hospital admissions and so on. And because of the chemo, I've been very tired even when I am at home and not able to do the things with them that I normally would.