How to help DH understand what is involved in parenting?

[Blackberry654]

DH and I are both mid thirties, and considering whether to start TTC. We have nieces and nephews who we both adore and many of our friends have young children.

DH is more keen on kids than me, but has a romanticised view of what parenting would be like based on the lovely (short) times we have with our niblings. He shuts down whenever I try and talk about logistics of how we'd share out responsibilities and says we'd just figure it out. He says I'm being negative when I remind him of how hard it'll be and that his life will change.

How can I get him to understand what a massive deal becoming a parent is? I feel like I have a grasp of it from talking to friends and reading Mumsnet, but it's like he's burying his head in the sand.

I’m keen to understand what questions you want to discuss?
Did my husband and I decide on a nursery over a childminder before having a baby- no. Did we decide who would arrange the vaccinations- no. Do mothers take on more of the mental load even in the most “equal” relationships- yes.
However is the question about who will pay the difference on the mortgage when on mat leave?

In l honesty OP I think it’s perhaps you that doesn’t want your life to change, which is fine but I wouldn’t project it onto you DP that he doesn’t know what will happen. Some people are just better at rolling with the punches- plus women are biologically thrown into being a parent from the minute they are pregnant.

My initial thought was meh, what’s the point about squabbling over night feeds etc. when you don’t know what the reality will be. DH and I never discussed it but I realise now that we were very much in agreement over contributions to bills, shared finances etc.
At the very minimum I’d want to know what he thinks will happen about maternity leave and childcare.

^and by ‘what he thinks will happen’ I mean has he even considered these things and how much flex does he have.

I think there are two different things going on here. Some posters are talking about the emotional and to some extent mental load of being a parent which you might muddle through and can't really know about until you're in it, and others are talking about hard practicalities which most of DON'T discuss before TTC but probably should. I absolutely agree with the pps who said that you should not agree to try unless and until he is prepared to engage with the questions of mat leave / pay, cost of childcare, what current hobbies or behaviours would have to change etc. A lot of this is objective and can be researched in advance. If he won't have a general discussion, maybe collect some info about finances, parental leave, nursery costs etc and ask him to have a very specific chat about if this works for BOTH of you. No its not romantic but eminently sensible. It doesn't mean that the end result will be not to have one and you should be careful not to present it as a list of negatives but as a genuine attempt to weigh up the practicalities. The "magic" of parenthood is all very well but actually for a lot of us, the cold hearted truth is that HAD we looked at all this practical stuff first, there might be fewer posts on here about women carrying the household while the men carry on as normal.

For reasons I won't bore you with, our parenting experience came with a side of extra hard work and shitty shitness. DH was quite young (26), hadn't a clue about babies and there are whole blocks of time we can't remember because of the extreme sleep deprivation.

But we both agree that having kids was the best thing we ever did. It is the stuff of real life and real love.

If you want it, you'll survive it.

He just says he doesn't know and we'll figure it out as we go along.

Thanks for all your replies. There seems to be a bit of a split of opinion. I think I'm the sort of person who doesn't like surprises and likes to feel in control as much as possible by planning in advance but maybe that's just not possible for a baby!

Oh and someone asked whether he's more keen - yes, very much so. I'm still on the fence.

As lots of people have said, I don't think you really understand till you do it. Would he engage at all in practical conversations like how much money you might need to save?

...and, to add - his lack of interest in talking about the detail certainly isn't making me lean towards yes!

Having children will be lovely and delightful for him, if you take on responsibility for all the 'baby stuff', night wakings, mental load and logistics. Then he can swan in after work and spend a lovely hour playing, before you take them up for bath and bed time (he might 'help' occasionally, as that time can be quite fun). Likewise at weekends, you'll make everything work, he'll do his own stuff - but post a picture on SM of every family outing you all go on - and get hundreds of likes and 'dad of the year' comments.

Is that the sort of dad you fear he might be?

Does he do his share of the cleaning, tidying, cooking and caring about making these things happen, now? If not, he won't be keen on that changing, even when the domestic workload increases five-fold.

Oh and someone asked whether he's more keen - yes, very much so. I'm still on the fence.

Definitely don't let him railroad you, OP.

It's a huge decision and a anyone who says it hasn't changed their life is either lying or a man.

You really need to know whether he's willing to sacrifice some earning potential and career progression to have children. If not really, then his expectation will be that you do.

What's he like with his own parents? How do they divide the domestic workload? Did he grow up seeing his Dad muck in and get things done as the norm? Or has he grown up with a model of 'Mother' as a person who does everything, for everybody in the household? That experience and the attitude and expectation it breeds, often lies deep; invisible while you're childless and equal, only to emerge with a vengeance when you have children.

The fact that he won’t properly discuss any of the practicalities is extremely concerning and tbh I would be saying to him that you won’t even consider TTC with him until he can prove himself adult enough by talking through the issues and making actual plans.

DH and I decided before I was even pregnant that we would both reduce our working hours to four days per week and use nursery for the remaining three days, with me doing drop offs and working a later start/earlier finish, and him doing pick up and earlier start/finish. So we knew our plans, could account for that financially and he knew from the get go that come 10 months he would be doing long days of childcare alone so he’d better be prepared and know how!

You need to have these plans worked out, far too many people on these boards end up in awful situations financial and career-wise because they are married to a selfish caveman who wants a baby to tick some life box, but has no intention of actually changing their life or doing any of the leg work involved. Don’t be those women OP.

When he says ‘we’ll figure it out’ that sounds a lot like ‘you’ll figure it out’. His attitude is not demonstrative of proper adult team working.

You really need to know whether he's willing to sacrifice some earning potential and career progression to have children. If not really, then his expectation will be that you do.

This!! This is the number one question that women should be asking our partners before we even contemplate TTC.

If he's so keen why isn't he willing to discuss the immediate concerns that follow on leave, finances, etc etc? That's not someone who wants to be an equal parent with you, that's someone who wants you to deliver him a fun kid to Disney Dad with while you pick up all the tough stuff.

I wouldn't even consider ttc with someone who already abdicated to you re mental load and refuses to discuss the very basics that have a huge impact on you.

Ultimately he has a great deal of power once you're pregnant to push decisions that damage your career and pension etc. That he's already being controlling about shutting down discussion of how these big elements would be handled is not acceptable. He doesn't get a veto!

Go back to basics. When he can consistently demonstrate genuinely pulling his weight then it's time to have the discussions. If he still won't... well it's never going to work, is it?

Reading through I think a lot of the reason for the split in responses is that some people are interpreting your op as being about minutiae on splitting chores and deciding bedtimes, rather than the bigger critical aspects. If your op had asked "should we be discussing leave, finances, and childcare expectations?" I don't think you'd see a split.

'Figure it out as we go along' does ring big alarm bells for me. It sounds like; he thinks he can rely on you to do all the hard work. He can then figure out which bits of parentng he wants to opt into.

You really need to know whether he's willing to sacrifice some earning potential and career progression to have children. If not really, then his expectation will be that you do.

Yes yes.

DH was more keen than me, has niblings (cute) and does more than 50% of the housework generally. I still had the mental load while DD was small.

Be careful if he won't talk about childcare and the big questions.

If you aren't even prepared to sit down and talk to me about how childcare and finances are going to work, then that tells me that having a baby together would not be a good idea. Your version of 'figuring it out' is going to almost certainly depend on me doing the figuring out and carrying the mental load - which I am not prepared to do. So if you are serious about wanting a child, then you need to be prepared to talk this through else it won't be happening.

Mental load is what kills relationships IMO, it breeds resentment from the one who has to think of everything and causes them to be cast as a 'nag' while the other is able to be fun time frankie. Imagine that plus kids. Nope.

Him not discussing thoroughly a plan for childcare and both of your jobs would make this a total non starter for me.

I agree with him to an extent regarding some day to day stuff, I guess everyone learns as they go, but the stuff you can plan, you should plan. Including work and finances. In depth.

Until he can have a calm, adult conversation about those things with you he is ready to be a fun uncle but not a sensible and responsible father.

How about OP, next time he mentions trying for a baby just give him a beaming smile and say yes, I’d love to start thinking about it, let me know when you’re ready to talk through all the logistics and I’ll take that as your sign that you’re serious about this and not just daydreaming. Then shut down completely any further attempts at baby talk, anything other than the logistics, finances, childcare etc. Show him that it won’t even start to become a possibility until he’s adult enough to do it properly. Don’t allow him to engage in all the lovely dreamy planning if he won’t plan the actual important bits.

@JovialNickname

Pedants Corner alert

Although niblings is a lovely word your nieces and nephews are not your niblings; they are niblings to each other!! (Like brothers and sisters are siblings). Beautiful word though x

Nibling is the gender neutral word for niece/nephew (hence beginning with n).

There is already a gender-neutral word for what they are to each other; cousins. Why would we need a new one?!

I don't think there's a split opinion. Most posters agree that you shouldn't have children with a man who 'won't discuss' important, life-altering topics with you. Whether that's having dc or moving abroad for a job or changing career.

I would strongly suggest couples counselling. He needs to hear from a neutral 3rd party that he's planning to dump all the work on you. Cuz he is.

Oh and someone asked whether he's more keen - yes, very much so. I'm still on the fence.

Definitely don't let him railroad you! He has his head in the clouds and won't talk about the nitty gritty.

I've seen this situation so many times; the man wants a baby and convinces his wife how much fun it'll be, she believes they're a team and falls pregnant. As soon as the baby's born the man suddenly becomes a potato and can't figure out basic things so the mother has to do everything. When the baby is 6 weeks old, the man suddenly discovers a newfound love of cycling which he has to do for 20 hours a week, leaving the mother with sole care of the house and newborn. A year or two of arguments and seething resentment later the couple divorce; apart from one afternoon a weekend his life is exactly the same as it was before children. The mother is the default parent, has given up her earning capability and is stuck trying to make ends meet on her flexible-for-the-children job and a derisory amount of child maintenance. All when she wasn't even sure she wanted a baby in the first place. It's a trap.

I would actually say to my dh in this instance "I'm not ttc until we actually clear some stuff up. This is a human. We can't wing it all".

Stuff dh and I discussed before ttc-

*smacking. I'm anti- and I wanted to make sure he was
*our own free time. If there's nothing in the calendar then the night or the weekend away is up for grabs and the other parent is presumed on duty. No "babysitting".
*dh would do bath time every night while I was on maternity leave
*we got a lie in each on the weekend (where bfing/expressing/bottle taking would allow).

@MarioPuzo

Oh and someone asked whether he's more keen - yes, very much so. I'm still on the fence.

Definitely don't let him railroad you! He has his head in the clouds and won't talk about the nitty gritty.

I've seen this situation so many times; the man wants a baby and convinces his wife how much fun it'll be, she believes they're a team and falls pregnant. As soon as the baby's born the man suddenly becomes a potato and can't figure out basic things so the mother has to do everything. When the baby is 6 weeks old, the man suddenly discovers a newfound love of cycling which he has to do for 20 hours a week, leaving the mother with sole care of the house and newborn. A year or two of arguments and seething resentment later the couple divorce; apart from one afternoon a weekend his life is exactly the same as it was before children. The mother is the default parent, has given up her earning capability and is stuck trying to make ends meet on her flexible-for-the-children job and a derisory amount of child maintenance. All when she wasn't even sure she wanted a baby in the first place. It's a trap.

And this pretty much sums up the Relationships board in one paragraph. @MarioPuzo I salute you!