Terrible CVs

[PymChurchBeach]

Disclaimer: I know times are hard and shitty right now and a lot of people are desperate for work so probably chucking out CVs left right and centre at anything and everything.

BUT. I have worked in HR for nearly a decade now and it has always been the same. The general standard of CVs is bloody awful. I'm recruiting for a mid level role at the moment and I have seen the following:

• people using little hearts and stars instead of bullet points
• massive glamour model style photographs taking up the whole first page of a CV
• people's dates of birth and marital statuses written up at the top. Just no!!!
• wacky, colourful borders and fonts. Comic sans. Enough said.

Also - this last one is possibly controversial but when women have had a break to look after DC, there really is no need to list all the skills gained as a SAHM - e.g. "excellent time management skills etc". You can just say you had time out to raise children. That's all you need to say. I'm not going to think any the worse of you for it.

I am desperate to implement application forms rather than have CVs and cover letters but my CEO is old fashioned and will not have it.

....apologies for the appalling grammar and spelling in my post 🤣 got distracted and posted before I checked - fail

I had a chap once hand me a CV. It was very sparse. Basically, he’d only written on it that he’d worked at McDonald’s. Name and DOB. He’d just finished uni, but nothing on it about that.

I can only speak to the public sector, but specifically in the NHS the insistence on a degree is to do with job evaluation schemes and how you justify people doing very different jobs the same (or in some cases, not the same) salary (e.g. a newly qualified staff nurse on a ward with the chief executive's PA, or an advanced nurse practitioner with a finance manager). Qualifications is a very important part of how the NHS (and many other similar) job evaluation schemes work.

It should always say 'degree or equivalent level of experience', although how 'equivalent level of experience' is defined is always a bit hazy, it definitely isn't just 3/4 years of working in the field = same as degree, in the examples above the newly qualified nurse will definitely have a degree but only experience as a student nurse, wheres the EA probably has decades of experience but maybe no degree, in some cases not even any academic qualifications. Both the ANP and the finance manager have degrees, probably masters degrees, the ANP probably also has many many years experience, the finance manager in some cases less so but they will be a chartered accountant etc etc. It can be a bit hard to tell if you aren't au fait with how the system and expectations of the NHS work, but I would say don't be put off applying for an admin job in the NHS if you don't have a degree, so long as you can demonstrate you have the knowledge and skills to do the role - bit different for clinical roles of course!

love thieved

Re: Charity and CIC groups

Oh yes Healthwatch are well known for demanding Business Degrees for basic admin roles and a Masters in Marketing for Marketing Exec level roles.

Business Management degree to answer the phone then whinge that they have a lack of decent applicants.

Pathetic!

I used to screen a lot of applications for healthcare jobs.

I'm very caring - my next-door neighbours' great aunt says so doesn't really sell your skills and abilities I'm afraid.

^I have a full shooting licence" Good for you, but that isn't necessary, even in our dodgier neighbourhoods.

I hav eggsellent writing communicattion wen I right letters myself No, you don't

I like working with children so why are you applying for a job on a care of the elderly unit?

I don't like driving at night So a community night nurse role, probably isn't for you then.

To be fair, a lot of job-centre applicants are steered towards caring roles, when it's not their choice.

Up thread a poster said that they leave off jobs from years ago as it gives away their age, Is this an advisable thing to do? Older people are overlooked often in recruitment and I know not to put a DOB on a CV but it can be so easily worked out, and the same goes for qualifications, my O level results will let them know I’m older. On a side note it is so frustrating and demoralising having to fudge my age because I’m 50, it was hard before Coronavirus now it’s going to be brutal.

I wouldn't bother with a job from many many years back, no. It would make the CV too long. Like, you don't need to include your saturday job from 1981.

What would you (anyone) advise people to do about overlaps? Everything always seems to be couched in terms of chronology, but what if, say, I did two jobs concurrently for a while and both were relevant in different ways? Or if, during a long 'mummy break', I did a) a part-time job b) a part-time masters and c) some unpaid work - but each of these ended, after which there was a significant period of 'just mummying' again. How to show that chronologically without it looking hopelessly messy and/or downplaying the jobs/study by saying I was a SAHP for the entire time (although I also was)?

Also on the subject of the 'other interests' section. Honestly I have more achievements outside of work than within. These are chiefly within the performing arts field and have mostly been unpaid, so I've been conditioned to include these under 'hobbies' (although I'll usually title it 'Other achievements').

I know about tailoring, I’m not dumb enough to list every acting role I've ever played or anything if I’m applying for a 'day job' but simply to leave them out entirely feels like making myself 'lesser'. Would you expect a musician who's recorded a couple of moderately successful albums, or someone who's, idk, a qualified pilot outside of work, just to not mention that at all? Quite apart from the fact that my chronology only makes sense if I list at least some of this stuff, these achievements are a fundamental part of who I am and in many cases there are transferable skills which I've gained as a result of these activities.

If the traditional 'hobbies' section is now ignored or even sneered at by recruiters, how on earth are people with unconventional work histories supposed to present their experience to potential employers? I get that I can write it in the covering letter, but the way it's being suggested here that CVs should now be structured seems very inflexible and doesn't work for everyone.

Also on the subject of the 'other interests' section. Honestly I have more achievements outside of work than within. These are chiefly within the performing arts field and have mostly been unpaid, so I've been conditioned to include these under 'hobbies' (although I'll usually title it 'Other achievements').

Are the achievements relevant to the role you are applying for?

RE: jobs while you were a SAHP, I would just put:

From 2014-17 I largely took a career break to raise my children. However, I did undertake some part time/voluntary work during this period, as detailed below:

date, role

date, role

and so on.

Would you expect a musician who's recorded a couple of moderately successful albums, or someone who's, idk, a qualified pilot outside of work, just to not mention that at all?

It wouldn't bias me against them, but if they were applying for say, a job as an administrative assistant, I wouldn't consider it relevant to how well they could do the job. But it would be necessary as career gap history, for instance - so you'd say from 2014-17 I was a musician and I recorded X album.

@PymChurchBeach

Would you expect a musician who's recorded a couple of moderately successful albums, or someone who's, idk, a qualified pilot outside of work, just to not mention that at all?

It wouldn't bias me against them, but if they were applying for say, a job as an administrative assistant, I wouldn't consider it relevant to how well they could do the job. But it would be necessary as career gap history, for instance - so you'd say from 2014-17 I was a musician and I recorded X album.

I agree. I often saw CVs from people who thought that hobbies completely unrelated to the role made their CV better.

I'd be happy to see a sentence because it gives me something to talk about in the interview to get a feeling for their personality, but wouldn't make any difference to me when deciding when to interview them. If anything, I might be concerned that they were just looking for this job as a stop gap until they could find a job as a pilot/ get signed to a label if it sounded like a dream job rather than a hobby

Would you expect a musician who's recorded a couple of moderately successful albums, or someone who's, idk, a qualified pilot outside of work, just to not mention that at all?

I would be surprised if they didn't mention it casually once they have started work, but wouldn't expect them to have put it on their CV necessarily, or perhaps only briefly touched on it as an 'interest', if it wasn't relevant to the job they were applying for. I totally get that these things are really important to you and I don't want to come across as not caring about my employees' lives and hobbies at all, I absolutely do, we talk a lot and I always make a point to ask how their Tae Kwan Do tournament or gig with their band or whatever went at the weekend, but in the recruitment process I make a big effort to be as objective as possible to purely select on who will do the job best, regardless of things like background, race, personality type etc etc, and that's really why I don't particularly want to hear about hobbies etc on a CV, I think it just gives you a (sometimes false) idea about a person which doesn't really affect anything in terms of their skills, qualifications etc. Also, I wouldn't think this way, but I am sure there are employers out there who would actively avoid employing someone who has achieved amazing things outside work, like being a professional level sportsperson, or a successful artist or whatever, because they would think that would mean they won't be as committed to the job as someone who pretends that work is their be all and end all!

Obviously all this is different if you are applying for work actually in the performing arts sector, in which case you should probably ask for advice from someone who knows the norms of the industry better and how CVs are usually laid out. The advice PymChurch and I and others are giving is based on generic corporate/public sector/third sector type roles. It may be really different in other industries. For instance generally I say CVs should be about 2 sides of A4 in a normal type font, maybe 2.5-3 if really necessary, no longer. But it's totally normal for doctors' CVs to be much much longer, more like a novella length once they are senior consultants, because its normal to list every research paper you've contributed to, every clinical audit or improvement project you've been involved in, every conference you've attended in the last 10 years and so on, which can run to many many pages! So any doctors reading this can ignore pretty much everything that's been said (except for the things about spell checking and glittery gifs etc which still apply!). And as others have said, it is different again in the USA or in Europe etc.

I wouldn’t include a Saturday job! (Never had one) but I’ve been in admin roles from the age of 16 but only for 5 different employers until now, so Im not worried about the length of my CV, it’s the age giveaway I’m more concerned about.

Yes, the length of CV varies depending on industry. It is normal for an academic's CV to be many pages long, for instance.

As a general rule of thumb for an average office based role I'd not want to read more than 2 sides of A4 for a CV.

Yes, 'Madame' with an 'e' is probably only used in a profession which does not traditionally rely on a CV in the application process.

I dunno, I hear they're very picky nowadays.

@PleaseChooseAnother

I often saw CVs from people who thought that hobbies completely unrelated to the role made their CV better.

Because that's what we were taught at school!

We were told it made us appear a 'more rounded person' and that employers would be looking for people who 'stood out' by having done something more interesting than the norm. As to 'your CV isn't your life story' - again, the total opposite of what I was taught. Curriculum Vitae literally means 'the course of life' so we were basically told, the more detail the better.

I realise of course that for a school leaver without work experience, there's not much else they can include besides their school trophies and whatever, so I've learned over the years to tailor it and to leave off stuff from years ago, but the advice to literally not include ANYTHING which isn't strictly relevant job experience goes totally against the grain of everything I've ever been told.

I’m finding this thread both illuminating and depressing in equal measure.

There was a question about how to present mat leave - if you worked for employer A before your pregnancy, took mat leave and went back to the the same job with employer - that is continued employment and doesn't need to be split pre and post mat leave.

If it's a different job, same employer a - put the jobs separately but again no need to refer to a career break or mat leave.

I'd only add mat leave if I had left employer a and there was a gap before starting elsewhere or I'd been an Sahm for a bit.

@ZaraCarmichaelshighheels

Up thread a poster said that they leave off jobs from years ago as it gives away their age, Is this an advisable thing to do? Older people are overlooked often in recruitment and I know not to put a DOB on a CV but it can be so easily worked out, and the same goes for qualifications, my O level results will let them know I’m older. On a side note it is so frustrating and demoralising having to fudge my age because I’m 50, it was hard before Coronavirus now it’s going to be brutal.

You only need to have your employment history from the last 10-15 years anyway - who really cares where you worked longer ago than that? And if you have higher qualifications than O-levels you could just leave them right off.

I think the musician example is one that depends. If you were a full time musician for 5 years, of course you should include that. But there's no need to go into extensive detail - it's a reference and a quick note on what you did.

On the part time/voluntary work during ML/SAHP time, I think what you put there depends on if it's relevant. eg if you're looking for a marketing role and you helped a small local business with its online marketing and social media, you'd play that up a bit more. If you volunteered at the local soup kitchen, you add it but without any additional details.

Roles done concurrently aren't an issue.

Personal assistant June 2016-Present
Personal trainer May 2017-December 2019

Or whatever.

@turquoise50

Because that's what we were taught at school!

I was taught the same. It's only since I started looking at CVs from the other side that you realise just how bad the advice can be. Saying that, for school leavers I would be more interested in seeing something about hobbies because you really are just relying on whether you can get on with them and whether they will accept training. Once they have any work experience, it becomes much less relevant.

The best thing I ever did to improve my chance of getting interviews was attend a training session run by a recruiter for my industry who explained what they really want to see in a CV. I suppose the problem is that what is needed in my industry isn't the same as in another, so it's hard to give general training.

[quote turquoise50]@PleaseChooseAnother

I often saw CVs from people who thought that hobbies completely unrelated to the role made their CV better.

Because that's what we were taught at school!

We were told it made us appear a 'more rounded person' and that employers would be looking for people who 'stood out' by having done something more interesting than the norm. As to 'your CV isn't your life story' - again, the total opposite of what I was taught. Curriculum Vitae literally means 'the course of life' so we were basically told, the more detail the better.

I realise of course that for a school leaver without work experience, there's not much else they can include besides their school trophies and whatever, so I've learned over the years to tailor it and to leave off stuff from years ago, but the advice to literally not include ANYTHING which isn't strictly relevant job experience goes totally against the grain of everything I've ever been told.

I’m finding this thread both illuminating and depressing in equal measure.
[/quote]
Things have changed a lot in the working world in the last 20 years, so tbh even if what people were taught at school was good at the time (and tbh, what is taught by people who aren't in the jobs market and have never hired themselves is often bad), it would likely no longer be up to date.

But yes, today, unless you are a school leaver and very new to work and have nothing except volunteering, school trophies, your paper round etc, you should leave off everything that doesn't make you a stronger candidate for a role. One tight, relevant page is a lot better than two pages that are 50% waffle. Hiring managers are time-poor and CVs are a sifting tool. What they want is for people to quickly and concisely prove that they are worth inviting to interview.

I think the main problem is that people just keep adding and adding to their CV without taking stuff away.

Of course when I left Uni I had things on there like my saturday job at Iceland, my O-level results and the places where i'd temped over the summer vacations. Because I had precious little else to put on.

But that's 25 years ago and it's totally irrelevant. If I were writing a CV now (unlikely as I'm self-employed), I'd maybe write about my self-employed work, the voluntary stuff and probably just a couple of words about my previous paid position. Along the lines of "Prior to 2004 I held a number of positions including Marketing assistant, purchase ledger team leader and credit control department lead.". Employers don't need to know I like knitting, cross stitch, drinking wine and watching crap on Netflix.

When I recruited last we saw some truly awful applications. Someone applying for a telephone-based credit control role who couldn't speak English. Someone who folded lots of that glitter confetti stuff inside her CV in the envelope. Lots of bright paper - marketing roles especially bad with people doing "wacky" stuff like making their CV look like a soup can label to show how creative they were.

I’ve been trying to persuade my employer to drop the application forms and ask for CVs for our most junior roles because:

a) no one worth having is going to spend an hour completing an application form for a £16k job when there’s no guarantee they’d even get a response these days.

b) the work involves writing letters to clients and communicating relevant information, so if they can’t get their CV right then they won’t be any good at the job.