Taking the knee

[TroubleNo1]

Really just wanted an insight into the history or significance of 'taking the knee' in support of Black Lives Matter.

I am 100% in support of the movement but Dominic Raab has been criticised for not doing it and in response I've not heard a reason why it is historically or currently something that if you don't do means you are not in support?

I want to be educated!

Looking forward to learning the meaning and reason behind it and if anyone thinks if you don't do it it's in some way opposed to the movement.

A discussion about taking the knee and should you do it, why etc would be good and I think OP would've got more positive reactions if she just asked/talked about that.

But to not even bother to find out what it means and why Some people do it when it's such easily accessed information?

The OP has already given her reasons for not googling first and that she would rather engage in conversation. She has also asked what is wrong with learning from others.

Perhaps she's gone to read up before having the audacity to ask further questions that perhaps she's given up because of posters telling her to just google.

Honestly, no one has the right to dictate what posters should and shouldn't ask. You don't want to engage in conversation yet you have posted several times here belittling the op for asking a question on a discussion forum.

"It's not my job to educate you" goes against the very nature of the forum. You could say that in response to any topic. "I have a problem with my boyfriend" - "Well talk to a counsellor, it is not my job to resolve your personal problems". "Would it be a good idea to buy a house at this point?" - "Talk to a mortgage broker, do your research, it is not up to me to educate you on current trends of the property market". "Help, my baby is colicky, what can I do?" - "Talk to your GP, it is not up to me to provide healthcare advice". And on, and on.

Do you see how ridiculous it sounds? This is a forum! If you don't want to engage just don't engage. No need to be nasty and pompous about being tired of explaining.

Well where are all your "educational " posts for OP and explanations?

At least I provided a link for her to read at her leisure.

Other than pointlessly arguing and moaning how horrible others are what have you done?

My first post on this thread is further up and I asked about why people seem to be responding with "just google" instead of answering the question or just ignore if they're so offended. Which was also why I added it was a tangent to the op's post.

I have also said that the op should be able to ask any question they want without being accused of being goady. I have suggested those who think op is being goady should report. That's not moaning.

You may have provided a link with an answer to what op is looking for you did so begrudgingly judging by your sarcastic response.

Thank you @Livingoffcoffee for the links you posted

Just to add to that. The US veteran who suggested kneeling rather than sitting to Kaepernick wrote an open letter to him. Google Nate Boyer letter to find it.
IMHO this is the part of the story that we should be learning from and focusing on. The letter (to paraphrase) said I am offended by you sitting during the National Anthem, to me it’s disrespectful to military who died for our country. But I understand that you are hurting and I understand you want to show that and see change.
So they met and talked and the result was that Kaepernick started kneeling instead of sitting. Boyer felt that was more respectful and Kaepernick felt he was still protesting.
But the point is that Boyer acknowledged Kaepernick feelings, they listened to each other and came up with a solution that they were both happy with. That is what we need to be doing.
Not kneeling as a tokenistic gesture which changes nothing. Let’s educate ourselves and others, work out solutions and take action.

I assume posts like this are disingenuous. Their aim is to kick things off. And it's worked. If you have any real intellectual curiosity and slightly more intelligence than a flea this site wouldn't be your first stop.

To info on things like this.

What can I say? I'm a sarcastic dick.

The that's bollocks comment was is direct response to a passage quoted from the book.

Anyone can scroll back and see that.

This thread is an excellent example of why minorities and women are still treated poorly.

At work I had a man I indirectly worked with start banging on about Harvey Weinstein and rape at the coffee machine and what was my opinion? Did I engage with him? Did I fuck.

(Actually the bloke who did this the week before I did. He told me the women all slept with him for their careers and then regretted it and said they'd been raped. I got annoyed. He looked pleased with himself and left).

For a black person at work, someone saying oh what do you think of the BLM protesters and what happened to spark them is a total minefield.

Many people who ask these questions are not looking for a dialogue in good faith.

And that's why books like 'why I'm no longer talking to white people about race'.

Shame the book is bollocks isn't it, based on the title and an extract

'The that's bollocks comment was is direct response to a passage quoted from the book.'

Er, no it isn't. It was a direct response to the below which is the only thing the poster actually said (why would I respond to the Reni Eddo-Lodge who isn't as far as I know, on the thread).

'There speaks the voice of privilege, with no idea why someone who is continually called on to 'educate' might indeed be 'bitter and weary':'

As I have explained several times, the poster knows nothing about my life or privilege (or lack of it) and clearly did not know that I have been a teacher for 20 years. I therefore think I do actually know quite a lot about what it is like to be called on to educate.

Thankfully I am not bitter or weary about education and still think it is the greatest gift of all. Otherwise I would be in the wrong job.

And, once again, if that's how you feel about it, don't do it but what the hell are you doing on the thread? And why is it less wearisome to criticise and belittle and spend time saying you're not going to enter into a dialogue (whilst ironically entering into a dialogue).

'Many people who ask these questions are not looking for a dialogue in good faith.'

But perhaps don't make assumptions. That's also prejudice.

There is nothing to suggest the OP was not asking a question in good faith.

If people couldn't come on here to ask questions I would say at least 50% of the threads wouldn't actually exist and who gives you or anyone else to judge which questions are or aren't valid?

'This thread is an excellent example of why minorities and women are still treated poorly.'

What? I really don't see that. And shutting down questions and dialogue is certainly not going to help minorities and women.

It's prejudiced to not want to engage with a fairly random man at the coffee machine at work about rape and Harvey Weinstein?

You seem overly invested in this staples.

I see that you feel strongly. What makes you so angry about people saying I'm surprised you've never heard of this before, it was so over the news, have you tried Google.

If someone came on and said who is the head of state of Mexico, or what is global warming, would you react similarly?

Staples, your reasoning is infantile.

Having read the various responses and digested info from links sent I am now much better informed thank you to those that shared information, in particular @Gilead @endlessginandtonic @livingoffcoffee @holdmylobster for the useful links. I really loved the comment by @rainbowqueeen.
Thanks also to @nostaples and all others who have understood my intentions and the reality of my post.

I have spent as much time as kids and work would allow reading the links and comments, hence my delay in responding. And I’ve got to be honest - I wasn’t going to bother responding yesterday morning. In fact I felt sick that I’d offended or upset anyone, by what I didn’t know, and asked MNHQ to remove my post. They declined on the basis that some people had been informative and it could help others.

I had never heard of Kaepernick - really. It’s true that I’ve not stayed up date on current affairs since having kids. I am not an active user of social media. Very rarely have the news or TV on apart from in the build up to COVID crisis and an hour of something mindless in the evening with DH. The only thing I really do get current affairs from is BBC radio london which I often have on during the day when I’m busy with the kids or working. I used to watch the news every night and look forward to question time each week. Don’t read papers since Ive been working from home for the last 12 years and don’t get the Metro anymore. I am afraid that I simply don’t have the time at this point in my life for current affairs that I used to but I’m sure that will change as my kids get older and I look forward to it.

However, it doesn’t really matter if news doesn’t interest me, that’s not a bad thing, who says it is? Who says it’s bad if you don’t even want to educate yourself? What if someone is happy and healthy and are content with that? Who gets to say that’s wrong? For some the idea of that is abhorrent in their lives. For others it bliss. It’s down to personal choice. Just like if you prefer not to ‘ask a bunch of randoms on a forum’ and prefer to google and engage less in conversation - I won’t judge you or tell you that’s wrong because that would be oppressive wouldn’t it?

Like most people have said, I did not directly ask or goad anyone to respond if they did not want and I also did not ask anyone of any particular race to respond. If you responded it was your choice to and in doing so you only spent your own time and energy.

No it’s not the job of other people to teach me. I never said it was. I asked a question. Some people like to teach and inform. You may not. Never said you had to, why waste time saying you won't?

I would assume (and this is not the case for all) that most people will know the history of their particular race/people better than that of another race. For example, half my family are not white and come from a land and people that were persecuted and displaced. My grandparents arrived here as refugees. I would not expect anyone to know the history of my family’s people or particular race. But I am actually delighted when people take an interest and I love telling them about this particular crisis that my family were caught up in and how they overcame that and how proud I am to be a descendant of such resilient people. Anyway, I guess my point is that it’s is a shame that people don’t want to share their history with conversation which they undoubtably know better and can add a personal element to. Of course google can answer a lot but there is also a lot to sift through and I simply don't enjoy it as much. Not everyone wants to spend their life finding everything on Google. I love conversation and hearing from people. By shutting conversation down or suggesting it's rude to even engage in it and not to ask in the first place I think many people will feel the they can’t approach a subject for fear of saying something wrong or offending (me yesterday morning) and also of putting people off showing any interest or learning at all which surely is not going to help heal any division in our society. We didn’t always have Google and personally I think there is a lot to be said for the healing effect of talking.

Gosh, make mnet redundant then and we'll all just google.
Some horrible comments on this thread.
I can't help you OP, sorry, it doesn't interest me at all, but saw the snotty replies.
I don't keep up with the propaganda they call news these days, either.
You are not on your own and it's a breath of air to find someone else the same.

Who says it’s bad if you don’t even want to educate yourself? What if someone is happy and healthy and are content with that? Who gets to say that’s wrong? For some the idea of that is abhorrent in their lives. For others it bliss. It’s down to personal choice.

OP, I was totally with you on that reply until this.

Unfortunately it's people staying uneducated about racial and prejudicial issues which keeps us at status quo. So yes, someone may be happy and content to stay in their little bubble - but if that is negatively effecting an entire race of people, I think we should all be saying that's wrong. When your personal choice is to effecting others, it's no longer a personal choice.

That said. I don't think people should be shamed for not knowing or understanding - if they are now seeking out that education and conversation.

I don't think the OP meant remain uneducated, I believe it was in response to the posters saying educate yourself through google, not on here.
I doubt she'd have posted if she wanted to remain uneducated.

@Devlesko fair enough - perhaps I misread that point from OP

I didn't know about taking the knee earlier. I did google it and looked at a BBC article. I'm glad I didn't come on here and start a thread for a bashing from some posters, so sorry you've had some shitty responses.

I think we should be more pissed off at our foreign secretary who thought it came from game of thrones, than a poster who wants a chat to be educated about it. Our foreign secretary has shown ignorance by not even bothering to find out what taking the knee is all about.

A poster who wants to learn more, has already done better than him.

Funny thing is, a lot of people have only just discovered what it means themselves, and yet some answers I've come across (not just on MN) act like they've known it for years

On the news earlier the sight of a white UK politician saying that he thought that a (not new) symbol of protest used by black people in a different country was -what was the word- inappropriate or something similar, was mind bogglingly awful.