Taking the knee

[TroubleNo1]

Really just wanted an insight into the history or significance of 'taking the knee' in support of Black Lives Matter.

I am 100% in support of the movement but Dominic Raab has been criticised for not doing it and in response I've not heard a reason why it is historically or currently something that if you don't do means you are not in support?

I want to be educated!

Looking forward to learning the meaning and reason behind it and if anyone thinks if you don't do it it's in some way opposed to the movement.

You have definitely not learned five languages by reading credible sources.

Patient (and perhaps impatient) people will have taught you by painstakingly modelling, conversing, repeating back.

Hopefully they were less resentful educators then you present yourself as.

Hopefully there are people in your own life who take the time to educate you in their leisure time because they like educating or because they like you.

I am thankful that is the case in my own life.

Feminists could say the same thing: that they are weary of the fight.

No doubt some do.

No doubt some feel it but carry on regardless.

Or... just google it?

Probably deserves a thread of its own, and a slight tangent here, but why has there been an increasing trend for mners to tell ops to do this rather than answer the op's question? It just seems unnecessarily arsey to me and you could just ignore surely.

I agree @xsquared

Sometimes, rightly, people want the human contact. They want somebody to explain something in an everyday way and perhaps give their interpretation, and perhaps to be allowed to come back and ask questions.

They might be embarrassed to ask somebody in RL or find other sources difficult to access or unapproachable.

That is why we're all on here isn't it? For the to and fro? For conversation?

I know this thread has derailed from the original question...but I'm amazed at how many people trying to answer are just wrong. Though I guess that's one of the problems with going to public forum vs researching reliable sources.

The current day "taking a knee" started with Colin Kaepernick as a way to bring attention to racial inequality and police brutality. Essentially saying - why should he stand for a flag of a country that oppressed black people. Originally he sat during the national anthem, but a veteran actually advised him to knee instead as they felt it was more respectful.

www.npr.org/2018/09/09/646115651/the-veteran-and-nfl-player-who-advised-kaepernick-to-take-a-knee

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/explainers-53098516

@nostaples exactly.

Nobody is forcing anyone on mn to join the conversation if they don't want to. Interacting with others and talking about the subject is another way to learn, and not everyone knows how to just teach themselves.

The last two threads where someone asked about 'taking a knee' were deleted when it became clear the OP was just using the 'please educate me' argument to be goady.

Having tried answering the questions on both of those threads, I'm at the stage of just reminding people that Google is their friend.

If that's how you feel perhaps just avoid the threads @HoldMyLobster

Can people seriously not see how condescending/ passive agressive/ rude it is to tell somebody to Google their question?

And to people really not get that they are choosing to come on here to then complain about HAVING TO educate others. Just don't then. Just don't.

Well, the OP has responded a couple of times since their first OP, so I'd be giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Can people seriously not see how condescending/ passive agressive/ rude it is to tell somebody to Google their question?

Maybe reread the excerpt from Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race again. Eventually you might understand some of the anger and exhaustion, especially considering the fact that the last two threads about this subject were deleted for being goady, lazy and racist.

why has there been an increasing trend for mners to tell ops to do this rather than answer the op's question?

Maybe because on certain sensitive topics like racism,disablism, feminism etc the least you could do would be to at least attempt to find some things out for yourself? That's if you actually give a shit and want to get involved and understand.

Maybe because those particular topics at least, are full of posters that have tried and tried again to explain, to educate , spent ages formulating sensible and reasoned answers,looked for articles/studies etc and then had it all thrown back in their faces?

Maybe because , like I said before, experience tells us that a high number of "educate me" threads are actually goady and/or trolling?

OP wasn't looking for quantum physics explanations, the work of Shakespeare analysed or the secret to cloning.

What she was looking for has been on telly, in papers, on social media etc. The information is easily found. How much does she actually care, how much work is she willing to put in if she can't do even do a simple google search?

If you believe this just another goady thread @HoldMyLobster then just report.

@HoldMyLobster more being condescending thanks.

It is unhelpful to criticise or belittle or put off people who genuinely want to learn.

It does nothing for any cause.

Without dialogue or education there cannot be change.

Imagine if Nelson Mandela had taken that approach.

It's also so childish. I remember little children saying 'I know, but it's for you to find out' on some sort of power trip.

The waste of energy and time is proved bogus. Why take the time to belittle but not to educate? It's the same time and energy, only one is productive and the other is unhelpful.

And since we cannot live separate lives and should not want to there MUST be dialogue and education.

Just as feminists must and do speak to men.

And no feminist makes those sort of patronising and self-defeatist comments to men, 'Oh you wouldn't understand because you're a man so I won't bother talking to you.'

@PrincessConsueIaBananaHammock

Well, the op has at least heard of it if it's been mentioned, so they must have got that from the news somewhere. The OP has already said they would like speak to people about it which is why they're asking on mn.

'How much does she actually care, how much work is she willing to put in if she can't do even do a simple google search?'

At the same time as saying it's too much work for you to do the educating.

At the same time as actually spending a lot of time and energy criticising.

You really don't see the layers of irony?

Thank you PrincessConsueIaBananaHammock for saying it articulately.

Honestly, it's amazing to me that people can read your posts and not understand our POV.

My mixed race family are exhausted by this all, not to mention our lives having been turned upside down over the last month by protests and violence, but apparently it's our job to carry on explaining to people things they could so easily find out themselves.

I've asked lots of questions on Mumsnet over the years as I've explained before because it's about conversation. That's why we're here.

If you think people are being offensive, report, if you can't be bothered, don't but I really don't think anybody here has the right to tell somebody else they can't ask a question.

'apparently it's our job to carry on explaining to people things they could so easily find out themselves.'

Er, no it's not.

People have said repeatedly DON'T. Go and have a cup of tea and a rest somewhere. Other people are willing and able without the resentment.

The op has not demanded that a BAME person to speak to them about it though have they? They've asked what the historical significance of it is.

They didn't ask you personally to do so, just someone who knows.

Can you seriously not get that it's a bit weird to say you are tired and don't want to explain and then use all your time and energy to keep saying that? Go and have a rest then.

Perhaps once you've gone and read some of the links provided on this thread you'll understand nostaples.

'ead some of the links provided on this thread you'll understand nostaples.'

You're quite patronising aren't you HoldMyLobster.

You've no idea what I've read and what my life is like.

As I've said, Eddo-Lodge, herself has said she appreciates the irony of her title. Shame that you don't.

Well, I really don't want to talk to white people about race and racism and how privileged they are and so what I'll do is talk to white people about race and racism and how privileged they are.

[quote Pedalboat]I disagree strongly. Wanting to be educated is WONDERFUL and most socially responsible people actually ENJOY helping, informing, advising, educating. Thankfully you are in the minority here and you sound bitter and weary.

There speaks the voice of privilege, with no idea why someone who is continually called on to 'educate' might indeed be 'bitter and weary':

This is Reni Eddo-Lodge from Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race:

“I can no longer have this conversation, because we’re often coming at it from completely different places. I can’t have a conversation with them about the details of a problem if they don’t even recognise that the problem exists. Worse still is the white person who might be willing to entertain the possibility of said racism, but who thinks we enter this conversation as equals. We don’t.

“Not to mention that entering into conversation with defiant white people is a frankly dangerous task for me. As the hackles rise and the defiance grows, I have to tread incredibly carefully, because if I express frustration, anger or exasperation at their refusal to understand, they will tap into their presubscribed racist tropes about angry black people who are a threat to them and their safety. It’s very likely that they’ll then paint me as a bully or an abuser. It’s also likely that their white friends will rally round them, rewrite history and make lies the truth. Trying to engage with them and navigate their racism is not worth that.

“Amid every conversation about Nice White People feeling silenced by conversations about race, there is a sort of ironic and glaring lack of understanding or empathy for those of us who have been visibly marked out as different for our entire lives, and live the consequences. It’s truly a lifetime of self-censorship that people of colour have to live. The options are: speak your truth and face the reprisals, or bite your tongue and get ahead in life. It must be a strange life, always having permission to speak and feeling indignant when you’re finally asked to listen. It stems from white people’s never-questioned entitlement, I suppose.

“I cannot continue to emotionally exhaust myself trying to get this message across, while also toeing a very precarious line that tries not to implicate any one white person in their role of perpetuating structural racism, lest they character-assassinate me.

“So I’m no longer talking to white people about race. I don’t have a huge amount of power to change the way the world works, but I can set boundaries. I can halt the entitlement they feel towards me and I’ll start that by stopping the conversation. The balance is too far swung in their favour. Their intent is often not to listen or learn, but to exert their power, to prove me wrong, to emotionally drain me, and to rebalance the status quo.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race[/quote]
How are people supposed to have any dialogue if this is the case?