Why does the UK have so many poor people?

[KenDodd]

Just that really.
Why do you think?

University is not the only route out of poverty and it isn’t a guaranteed way out of poverty. When HE access expanded to allow 50% of school leavers to go to university, there wasn’t a corresponding 50% expansion of graduate job opportunities.

Let’s blame the older generation, why not. Many have lived through wars, real hardship. They very often didn’t have the option of credit, they had to save up if they wanted anything.
Some are wealthy but many are not, remember female inequality, it’s still going on. Yes in today’s terms their houses were cheap but their salaries were often low. I think there are a lot more youngsters who are rich today than the elderly.

@QueenOfWinterfell

University is not the only route out of poverty and it isn’t a guaranteed way out of poverty. When HE access expanded to allow 50% of school leavers to go to university, there wasn’t a corresponding 50% expansion of graduate job opportunities.

And yet graduates earn £10k a year more, on average. There probably was at least a 10% increase in graduate jobs as many traditional non graduate roles developed into graduate roles. Ambulance crews became paramedics, nurses required degrees, sports science blossomed. Suggesting vocational routes damns poor children to a reasonable income but not being a high earner and not influencing the wider world. Rich youngsters will always be able to go to university; it’s an accepted norm. Poor children have to overcome huge barriers still.

There are no guarantees but poor children studying medicine, dentistry, accountancy, veterinary medicine or those with a 2:1 from a RG are unlikely to remain poor. Education achievement and aspirations are key to escaping poverty.

With a very generous social welfare system and a health service that’s free at point of use, I’d argue that people aren’t poor in the U.K. however people do seem to make bad decisions about how they spend their money.

@itsmdhbnsu I wrote an essay on universal credit and other barriers to study for single parents for my MA. Little did I know that the following semester I'd be a lone parent again. I was lucky I could stay on tax credits and finish the course. But UC is the single most damaging thing that I found when looking at why parents, in particular single parent's education journeys end prematurely. The usual line on here is that single parents shouldn't be allowed to do a degree "paid for by the rest of us" and deserve to work in McDonalds for the rest of their life though. I also wonder what people define as poverty when I see threads about £60k being quite a low income etc. And how someone on low pay and UC is a CF for daring to order a pizza but if you've spaffed your £5k a month on nannies and cleaners and school fees then everyone should feel sorry for you, not tell you to cut the coat according to the cloth.

But why keep pushing university as the only way out of poverty
For some people it isn’t the right path whether they are from a poor background or a rich one.

Trades are a perfectly good alternative and trades in the broadest sense of the word doesn’t just cover construction trades.
Hair dressing, beauty therapy, childcare, hospitality are all perfectly good “trades”

Things are only going to get worse though.

Just because you don’t have a Maths or English GCSE doesn’t mean you are incapable of learning to plumb or cut hair or cut wood but now you need GCSEs to get above a level 1 course.

What happens to the people who are never going to get GCSEs who in the past would have gone down the trade route.

Where are they going to end up.

Do you really think the rich and powerful are up for us having a fantastic education system and a meritorious jobs market?

No one wants their privately educated kid to be outgunned by the kid from the council estate. They are happy for people to have a very basic education and not think too deeply about stuff. You have to be quite exceptional to push through to the top if you are working class and state educated.

@Oliversmumsarmy all the trades you mentioned above require in person contact.. I wouldn't recommend getting into it during a global pandemic, when these jobs and industries would ever recover is a big question mark!

My DH has a sister with no GCSEs, she can't even get any work experience in anything because of it. My DH and his 2 sisters all have degrees and master degrees. While not everyone is earning the big bucks, they all have work. Like his sister who is pursuing a graduate degree in music has definitely lost work but she is able to tutor people on Skype/Zoom and pay her rent. And she tells me that for music, graduate degree is the bare minimum really to get jobs. No one does music for the money but at least with her qualifications she can do teaching and earn some money even if it's not much. His mum does translation (graduate degree in languages) and yes she has lost work but is able to work from home comfortably. For DH, his employer is business as per normal and as it is an investment bank, they have sufficiently large headquarters to go back soon in rotations.

I think that is the big gap. Graduates may not always earn much but their jobs tend to be ones that can be done online and enable them to keep earning during a global pandemic. Or they are doctors/nurses/civil servants who all have degrees .

Letty, plenty of people in the UK cannot access “welfare”, and the NHS is on its knees and also inaccessible to some people eg homeless.

I had to self-fund my GCSEs and it took years because going to high school would have meant my benefits being cut off. That’s a huge barrier preventing people from getting off benefits.

Because we are a right wing, capitalist country which depends on poverty to keep wages low.

Wealth only exists in relation to poverty.

Vote Tory, get more poor people.

Letty, plenty of people in the UK cannot access “welfare”
Why?

@LettyBriggs

With a very generous social welfare system and a health service that’s free at point of use, I’d argue that people aren’t poor in the U.K. however people do seem to make bad decisions about how they spend their money.

I think the UK rates are woeful to be honest. 70 odd quid a week? Maybe ireland is way way more expensive than the uk but I cant fathom how someone can pay their bills and keep themselves fed and clothed on that, it is more than double here. Also your child benefit rates?! 13.95 a week for any child after the first, that is extremely low. It's half of what you get here.

The fact that the UK accepts that foodbanks are a normal thing, that so so many people are needing charity just so they can eat is shocking.

I think the op and many on this thread have never experienced poverty and have a bit of a Guardian reader/Jeremy Corbyn view of it. Genuinely if you think wages or benefits are low in this country, they are way worse in about 95% of the rest of the world. If you think it’s hard to get by in the UK, you need to give yourself a shake. Even the poorest has an easy ride in comparison to many places I have family.

Also a coffee from somewhere like Starbucks is definitely a luxury. You don’t understand that op because you’ve never really been poor. Which is great for you.

Capitalism. Right wing government.

I have never felt abject poverty like those living in 3rd world countries. I’ve definitely just about managed to keep eating on the U.K. universal credit system, despite loosing weight and making myself go below 7.1 stone at 5”4 in height, shortly after having my 1st child.

I found myself pregnant in my last year at university and I couldn’t face an abortion. My partner found a low paying job but the company went under when baby was 3 months, so we ended up on universal credit (no mat leave for me because I hadn’t worked long enough after my degree
-almost qualified).

We were given £1070 a month. Our council tax was £80 even though we were on UC. Our rent was £650. We had £340 left to pay ALL of our bills. For various reasons, we went very hungry those months, and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. I don’t think people realise this happens to people in Britain. People go hungry for reasons outside of their control. I will always thank my lucky stars my partner found a better job quickly, before my son started weaning.

If you feel true hunger then you’ll always remember it. Losing your job is awful and sadly more people will begin to understand this shit reality.

Is that aimed at me, TARSCOUT?

I don’t know why many Brits can’t access “welfare” as our (presumably) non-British posters refer to it. Ask Boris.

If you think it’s hard to get by in the UK, you need to give yourself a shake.
You’re literally saying that to someone who was sleeping on the streets at 15. Get absolutely fucked, you have no idea how difficult it is for people who are excluded from education/work/benefits.

If you feel true hunger then you’ll always remember it.

Exactly. I have permanent bodily damage including permanent lung damage purely because I grew up in poverty. (In the UK. In the 21st century.) Fucking disgraceful that’s allowed to happen.

And no I did not “mis manage” my money, didn’t drink, didn’t smoke, didn’t drink takeaway coffees or any of the other things you’re so desperate to wave as anti-poverty “can’t possibly happen to me” talismans.

@CathyComesHome
Is that aimed at me, TARSCOUT?
I don’t know why many Brits can’t access “welfare” as our (presumably) non-British posters refer to it. Ask Boris.
It wasn't "aimed" at you but yes I was asking you the question. You can't just post something like that and not know why, hardly an informed opinion. You've obviously been through a tough time and are very angry so educate me why many brits can't access welfare. Maybe by educating as opposed to?mouthing off you might be able to change things?

TARSCOUT you copy and pasted my post but didn’t quote or highlight it, or use my username, or do anything to indicate it was a copy paste and not your own post, which is strange.

Why did you copy and paste my post into your post if your post wasn’t aimed at me?

Fuck off with your “educate people don’t mouth off” bullshit. I have enough on my plate dealing with severe trauma and disability and trying to keep my head above water. Why do you think it’s the job of the most vulnerable to change things? Why is it my job to educate you about a subject you could easily google?

You can't just post something like that and not know why

No I genuinely have no idea why my ATOS assessor lied. (Other than because they are told to.) But it’s a known fact that they do, literally hundreds of thousands of reports/complaints, plenty of media articles, the famous undercover TV documentary, there’s even a MN thread running about that very subject right now.

Why do you think it’s the job of the most vulnerable to change things? Why is it my job to educate you about a subject you could easily google?

Why are you on a messageboard then angrily responding to questions without just answering? I get if people are coming up to you in 'real life' randomly and asking, but it's weird when people post in topics and then get shirty when someone responds.

Because people who are not even British are making ignorant, hostile and dangerous claims which deny the reality of being a disabled and/or impoverished person living in the UK.

The Tory-worshipper line that poor people and disabled people are actually living the life of Riley, rolling around with their free big screen TVs spunking their apparently millionaire-level benefits on booze and fags while poor tax payers toil to support them, is a dangerous lie invented to sow discord and scapegoat disabled and underclass people.

The fact that many of the most vulnerable people in the UK are not eligible for benefits, and that many disabled people (including severely disabled and even terminally ill) people have their benefits claims turned down, is so well reported that I question the agenda of anyone acting pulling the wide eyed naïf routine.

I should be allowed to share my own personal experience without being jumped on and expected to be a political expert by non-Brits who are apparently too lazy to Google.

And I have answered every question which I am capable of answering.

Sorry I’m not a political expert and can’t magically produce detailed knowledge of the inner workings of the government out of a hat.

Oh and my entire industry has been destroyed at a stroke by COVID. A small number have been furloughed but the vast majority of workers in my industry are freelance and combine self-employed gigs with short-term periods as an employee. This means that many hundreds of thousands of people have fallen through the gaps in the system set up to support people who have lost their jobs due to COVID. They aren’t eligible for furlough or any of the other things set up to support employees, but many of them do not meet the strict criteria to apply for SEISS. So the only avenue available to them is UC, which is £409.89.

Four hundred quid a month and non-Brits are banging on about how there’s no poverty because we have such a generous welfare system!