Why does the UK have so many poor people?

[KenDodd]

Just that really.
Why do you think?

@cathycomes home
I didn't highlight because I pretty much couldn't be bothered, it was 2am, I've had a hard week and was too over stimulated to sleep.

You won't change anything by insulting people who ask a question. I live in one of the most deprived areas in Scotland. I don't know anyone who hasn't been able to access benefits and you posted many people couldn't and I'm asking why.

Presumably you have been in that position so was hoping rather than reading through miles of produced paperwork you could give examples of a RL person. You could say anything you want to educate me I would accept your experiences as truth. Instead of following up on your statement you just insult. This is why things don't change.

You may well question why I don't know all these things that are so well reported and thats right to do so. The reason is that by the time I have worked a fulltime stressful job, sorted out the family, checked in with elderly parents and dragged my weary bones round the supermarket, I have very little time or energy to do anything which involves brain power.

You had the chance to help me understand but you chose not to. You says it's not your responsibly but you are in the perfect position to pass on real life experiences but again you chose not to.

Example of a person who can't access benefits -
A person with mental or physical health problems rendering them unable to work but deemed fit for work by DWP assessors. People in this situation have actually starved to death, genuinely starved to death in 21st century Britain. I don't know how much more real poverty needs to be before certain posters are happy.

And yes I have experienced real poverty and homelessness myself (although according to plenty on this thread I wasn't poor enough) when I was a young adult. The longest I went without food (no food at all, not a single mouthful of anything) was three days.

Except that I have passed on personal experience. And been insulted for not knowing why the benefits system is set up the way it is. You didn’t make clear that you wanted “personal experience” you made it sound like you wanted me to explain why the government has made the decisions it has made. I do not possess enough political knowledge to explain the inner workings of governmental decisions.

You had the chance to help me understand but you chose not to.
Except that is not true. I told you that my claim for disability benefits was turned down because my ATOS assessor lied. In a separate post I explained that I’d been forced to voluntarily go off benefits in order to complete my education due to a rule that you cannot receive benefits while studying. I also posted a huge post explaining exactly how and why many of my peers in my industry are currently falling between the gaps in the systems created to support people who have lost their jobs due to COVID, and the fact they are only eligible for £400 a month which according to a poster upthread is a “very generous welfare system.” (And actually some aren’t even eligible for that.)

Please explain how much more “personal experience” you want, on top of the multiple posts of personal experience I have already made?

I don't know anyone who hasn't been able to access benefits.
I find that extremely shocking tbh.

University is not the only route out of poverty and it isn’t a guaranteed way out of poverty.

But we shouldn't need a route out of poverty because nobody should be living in poverty in the first place. If someone is working 40 hours a week in a care home, unable to provide for their children and we say 'get a better paid job' 'get more education ' etc. So they do that and get a better paid job, all good, life is better for them.
But somebody else then needs to come work 40 hours a week in the care home living in poverty.
The original problem, of poverty isn't solved.

the trades you mentioned above require in person contact.. I wouldn't recommend getting into it during a global pandemic, when these jobs and industries would ever recover is a big question mark

So if your toilet got blocked or your electrics failed and you couldn’t fix the problem or you just wanted a door fitted you wouldn’t during this time get a plumber or electrician or carpenter round to do any work.

You would cross your legs and sit in the dark for the next few years till it was over?

We have had a succession of plumbers/electricians/carpenters and work men at our house during this time.

They are all still busy working.

Agree things like hospitality has taken a hit.
Both dc worked in this industry.
They also had a few jobs in different areas that they thought if one area wasn’t doing well they had other work to keep them going but everything fell like a pack of cards.

My DH has a sister with no GCSEs, she can't even get any work experience in anything because of it

Dd and Ds would have had the same problem if they wanted a f/t job. They went Self Employed and did temp work to start off with (at least they could claim travel expenses and various other things against tax). They do various jobs in various industries. And seem to be relatively well paid compared to basic minimum wage.

Dd has been doing this for over 3 years and is now at the stage her lack of GCSEs isn’t stopping people offering her jobs just based on seeing her work.
She has just turned down a job on £55k (if she had passed her GCSEs and A levels and gone to university she would still be in uni studying for the “career”)

My whole issue is there are some very bright people who are going to slip through the net if we keep obsessing over having GCSE English and Maths

A boy I was at school with (normal state school primary) was completely obsessed with anything scientific. Today you would call him a complete nerd.

He never passed his English GCSE (O level or CSE as it was in the 60s/70s)

He popped up on my news feed a few years ago. After successfully managing various scientific projects he was to head up a research programme into a certain illness in the US.

Now he wouldn’t have been able to go to University let alone get an apprenticeship as an electrician or plasterer because of his lack of English qualification

These are the people that this obsession with a Maths and English GCSE is going to fail.

I was a single parent in the 90s.my rent and council tax were paid in full and I just about had enough money to manage on. Benefits haven't risen with the cost of living and now people who are in the position I was have to contribute towards their rent and ct, leaving them with little to pay their bills and eat. Benefits are in no way generous.

Okay more personal experience;

*You had to be 18 to apply for benefits back then.

*If you don’t have a fixed address it’s almost impossible to access healthcare (except for emergency medical care) so it’s impossible to get things like disabilities or long term medical conditions diagnosed. I wasn’t able to register with a GP for years due to lack of fixed address, and you can’t apply for disability benefits without giving the name and address if your GP, it without having a diagnosis.

*The area where I used to live was severely deprived and had no money for MH support. I asked for a referral to a psychiatrist or some other form of MH support and was told that due to NHS funding their criteria for referral was limited to substance abusers, people who were actively suicidal, and people who had already been diagnosed with a serious mental illness. So I was not eligible to be referred to a psychiatrist and my GP was not able to make a MH diagnosis. Which meant I was not at that time eligible to apply for benefits.

*ATOS assessor started our interview by asking what TV I like. I thought she was making conversation. Nope it’s a trick. If you answer with the name of a TV show they write, “Cathy is capable of sitting upright in a chair looking at a screen for 60 minutes and therefore has no barriers on being able to do a desk job.” BAM, benefits denied. I don’t know if things have changed now but watching TV used to mean you were automatically fit for work.

*Non-disability benefits are out because they either require you to have already worked and paid NI contributions, or to show proof that you are actively seeking work.

Anybody with eyes can see that trades are male dominated to the extent of being almost exclusively Male. Girls see this growing up, as do boys. Girls have to really, really want to follow this route whereas boys can just think it might be ok and give it a try. Any training/college courses will be full of boys and you have to be incredibly naive to think girls don’t have to be quite resilient to get through that AND have to outperform the boys to prove themselves. Girls will find it more difficult to get apprenticeships and work experience and part time jobs while in college etc because all male crews either actively don’t want a girl or have in group favouritism towards boys. Then there is the strength. Not all boys are stronger than all girls but there is an obvious trend. Caroline Criedo Perez writes in invisible women about the building trade and how blocks are the right size for average male hands, bags of cement are a good size and weight for men to lift and carry etc. Girls are discouraged from trades from the cradle so it’s not a level playing field that can be solved by people saying “there is no rule to say girls can’t do trades”. There are no rules but there are walls. The traditional female traders of beauty and childcare are lower paid (unless you are a man)

More second hand personal experience: in my industry it’s common to be paid in a one or two lump sums even if the job takes many months. So you get paid your entire salary for six months’ work in one lump sum rather than weekly/monthly. The way the benefits system records income is by month. So if your records shows that you “earned” £12k in one month, they assume that you earn £12k every month when actually that might be your total earnings for the whole year.

I have a friend whose UC was cut off because a client finally paid an invoice from last year and because they paid him for several months of work all in one go, the amount in that lump sum was too high and meant he lost all his benefits. Because the benefits system is set up on the assumption everyone takes home a regular weekly/monthly paycheque.

@Oliversmumsarmy is your daughter allowed to turn down a £55k job while on UC? Cos you mentioned before she was on UC.I don't usually judge benefit claimants but I think most taxpayers would be pissed off that people can turn down £55k jobs while collecting furlough money and UC.

StampMc

The point I was trying to make regardless of sex was that even if a boy wanted to do a trade or a girl wanted to do hair dressing or vice versa it wouldn’t matter if they had a natural knack for these careers they couldn’t do them if they didn’t have 2 irrelevant GCSEs

People can still be numerate and literate without passing these exams. It has got to the stage that if you can’t analyse a poem you can’t be a plumber.
If you can’t do algebra you can’t cut someone’s hair

What happens to those who have dyslexia and are quite intelligent but are never going to pass English and/or Maths.

Dd tried to go to college to do a vocational course. She couldn’t get in as she didn’t have a Geography and an RE GCSE

No one knew why Geography or RE were relevant. It was just the rules.

Dds school didn’t even do RE as a GCSE

Genuinely though how does someone without GCSEs even enter a trade? To qualify as a plumber takes four years of study and thousands of pounds, and you somehow have to pay rent and buy food during those four years. There is less funding available for technical qualifications than for regular university, which is a shame. I don’t know any temp agency who would take on someone without GCSEs. It feels like the system is really slanted against anyone who isn’t able to follow the ‘standard’ secondary school-university pathway.

It has got to the stage that if you can’t analyse a poem you can’t be a plumber. If you can’t do algebra you can’t cut someone’s hair.

Well said, it’s ridiculous.

Genuinely though how does someone without GCSEs even enter a trade? To qualify as a plumber takes four years of study and thousands of pounds, and you somehow have to pay rent and buy food during those four years

You go to college at 16. College doesn’t actually cost anything and as most 16 year olds are living at home there isn’t any rent or food to pay

But now as I said only the academic students can go to college.

You can do the level 1 plumbing course without GCSEs but you can’t progress from there.

Desiringonlychild

Dd is self employed and 1st July is when her industry is opening up again.

The person offering the job understood that the type of work wasn’t the thing that Dds business was all about and that as soon as things reopened she would be off.

Also because of the nature of the job (hospitality) it wouldn’t have started till after she had already started back at her business.

Plus she had already accepted a lot of jobs that will go ahead after all this is over.

She wasn’t turning down a job she could have been earning money at instead of being on UC. In fact if she had taken the job and cancelled her other work she would be on UC for the foreseeable future or until big events are allowed to take place.

I think perhaps a massive increase in the availability of social housing would go a long way towards alleviating poverty. Plus it would provide secure homes for people that they could make their own and income streams (rent) for councils. I don't see a downside.

@CathyComesHome

It has got to the stage that if you can’t analyse a poem you can’t be a plumber. If you can’t do algebra you can’t cut someone’s hair.

Well said, it’s ridiculous.

It’s not quite true though.

All the FE services are funded on the basis of offering Maths and English either through GCSE or via functional skills. Once achieved,, there is no further requirements to study basic skills.

Are people seriously suggesting it’s not important to be literate and numerate to level 2/GCSE level 4? I’d see that idea as seriously undermining any social mobility, disadvantaging the already disadvantaged and doing the individual and society an injustice.

Literacy is a human right. It improves health. It promotes gender equality. It promotes peace and democracy. It boosts the economy.

Plenty with dyslexia go to university.

I’m in my 50’s now, but I know there was no chance in hell that I would have ever passed Maths O level, but passed English pretty easily. I was unemployed a couple of years ago and struggled to find work. I’m now wondering if that’s because I didn’t have maths on my CV.

All the FE services are funded on the basis of offering Maths and English either through GCSE or via functional skills

That was the case last year

Now it is only for level one.

You can’t get on a level 2 or 3 course without those qualifications.

One of our local colleges was the only place that offered level 2 or 3 courses without students having to have Maths and English GCSEs and you could study these alongside the course

That was 2 years ago and whilst waiting for Ds to enrol I watched as many many other boys and girls came into reception with their parents asking if they could enrol with the college because the college of their choice had refused to take them as they had failed Maths or English GCSE.

For this September when Ds (top of his class with near perfect scores on all of his tests and assessments) was supposed to be going back to start level 3 he too has been refused a place because he doesn’t have an English GCSE. No chance of him getting it and even if he got 100% in everything to do with his course he couldn’t qualify because he doesn’t have English.

Just because you don’t have GCSE English doesn’t mean you are illiterate or can’t communicate.

Just because you don’t have GCSE maths doesn’t mean you can’t add up

The whole thing has got ridiculous.

The trades people you are getting are the people who might not necessarily were the best plumbers or electricians or plasterers but the ones who are average but could pass an irrelevant exam

Why does the UK have so many poor people?

Because there are millions of menial jobs which are essential, but they mostly pay shit wages.

Take a look at the people on low pay who have continued working and kept the country running during this pandemic and you will see what I mean.

@CathyComesHome I am British thanks and I’ve also been a single parent on benefits in the Uk so I am fully aware of how the system works. I also have close ties to other countries and family there.

You claim you were sleeping on the streets in the UK at 15. But there are services to prevent 15 year olds sleeping on the streets in the Uk. I used to work in one. Of course some people fall through the cracks and/or don’t want to be helped. But the local authority is obliged to house 15 year olds and they and many other agencies work to do so.

You say - “The fact that many of the most vulnerable people in the UK are not eligible for benefits“. How is that a fact? Why do you claim “most” of the “vulnerable people“ eligible?

No one is denying there are some relatively poor people in the UK. But the situation in the UK is a million miles from where some of my family live, eg Ukraine. We are relatively lucky in the uk whether you like it or not

@KenDodd don’t be ridiculous. There is poverty everywhere. It’s a relative concept anyway so impossible for no one to be living in poverty.

Historically though, tradespeople have been the bright working classes who felt that university was not for them. When I went to uni in 1983, I was quite surprised that loads of middle class people on my course were considerably thicker than my mates who were plasterers or welders.

Both my Grandad and my dad were bright but never even considered clerk type jobs because they could earn far more as colliers.

Thing is nowadays anyone with any sort of brains is shoved down the uni route. Then you get bright 24 year olds media graduates dying by slow degrees in packing warehouses and joiners who struggle assembling flat pack.

But the local authority is obliged to house 15 year olds and they and many other agencies work to do so.
Well I certainly wasn’t aware of them. All the “authorities” wanted to do was force me to return to an abusive home and threaten me for “making up lies” about their best mate, my wonderful stepdad.

Why do you claim “most” of the “vulnerable people“ eligible?
Why have you deliberately misquoted me?