Why does the UK have so many poor people?

[KenDodd]

Just that really.
Why do you think?

Thank you, that’s kind.

I find it fascinating how many people in this country are utterly self centred and individualistic.

The Scandinavian cultures are happier, wealthier and more even in terms of spread of wealth. They see a civic duty to contribute and in turn they are supported. It's all about the bigger society and how a country rises when it works together to support each other BD that the people are so much happier. All the Scandinavian cultures are in the top 10 of the world's happiest nations.

I wish we could be more like that.

The introduction of in work benefits has definitely caused wages to stagnate. I think they were originally introduced by Gordon Brown to stimulate the economy for a short while but employers quickly used them as a means to pay lower wages so they couldn’t be removed. The end result has been that employers not employees gain more wealth

Absolutely agree.

The fundamentals of reasonable costs for childcare, state subsidised. Equal working rights and an expectation that men do their proper share if childcare.

The Scandinavian cultures have it far better than us

@CathyComesHome, I too have the utmost admiration for people like you, you are inspiring.

Can I just add, I also think credit cards should be treated with extreme caution.

I was talking to a colleague in the US, her sister ended up with eye watering credit card debts but the lenders kept offering her more, even though it was obviously completely unaffordable. Although I think lenders are slightly more responsible here, it is still an issue, that isn't discussed often enough.

I see this quite frequently on MN, you are poor then you should submit yourself to a very low standard of living.

We once Sat with someone who wanted help , She bought a car recently, a really standard car nothing fancy.Few were questioning why not just take the bus or tube for work? And just use the instalments for food and clothes

On another occasion Someone Casually asked if It’s wise to help with white goods grants like fridge and washer, why not just wash clothes by hands?

You are struggling God forbid you pay £9 for a streaming service or £1.40 for a coffee every once in while or buy a pricier coat for your DC so it can fit him longer or get used by a younger sibling later on, because thats what’s making you poor, not high bills or low wages.

Reading through some of the posts on here, it seems that some people are still attached to the Victorian notion of deserving and undeserving poor.

@BaileysforBreakfast

Reading through some of the posts on here, it seems that some people are still attached to the Victorian notion of deserving and undeserving poor.

I had hoped this pandemic might level out those attitudes a bit. How many times on here have we seen posters saying "oh I've worked hard, I'm well protected nothing will ever happen to me".. Now people like that are struggling through no fault of their own... Just like everyone else.

I hope some humility has crept in.

I haven't much to add to the reasons, but I think it is appalling that so many are back to reciting the tired old rubbish about how "the UK doesn't have real poverty".

It absolutely does. It has homeless people with nothing. It has people living in food poverty. It has people who have to choose between paying rent and food, even before you get to people who have to forego heating. You get people living in modern slum buildings because we have no rights over landlords whatsoever. You get people dying of poverty in the UK every year. My dh was brought up in food poverty, I didn't have much better, and if you look around many deprived towns and areas nothing has changed. In fact, thanks to the housing grab by richer groups and council house tenants, they've got worse.
The recognition by the middle classes of just how little some people have that crept in after Brexit didn't last long did it. Denial, then it's all your own fault, as usual.

*I think the real down turn was years ago under Blair when a university education became the be all and end all.

The idea that university was everything and learning a trade was somehow secondary so if you didn’t go to university you wouldn’t get a decent job*

My two sisters went to Uni in the New Labour years and got good degrees. They were both temping doing agency work afterwards for years.

And a lot of people just go to Uni for the experience and the fun but they often enter the job market a few years behind those who left school at 18.

@QueenOfWinterfell

The introduction of in work benefits has definitely caused wages to stagnate. I think they were originally introduced by Gordon Brown to stimulate the economy for a short while but employers quickly used them as a means to pay lower wages so they couldn’t be removed. The end result has been that employers not employees gain more wealth

It's our equivalent of tipping in the American service industry where the customer pays the wages of the staff and the companies get richer paying bum wages.

QueenOfWinterfell Fri 19-Jun-20 10:06:54
The introduction of in work benefits has definitely caused wages to stagnate. I think they were originally introduced by Gordon Brown to stimulate the economy for a short while but employers quickly used them as a means to pay lower wages so they couldn’t be removed. The end result has been that employers not employees gain more wealth

In work benefits were first introduced by the Conservative Government of Edward Heath, in 1972, under the name of 'Family Income Supplement'. Intended as a temporary measure, they have remained - under various names - ever since. But, were greatly expanded by the Blair/Brown Governments.

@annabel85

*I think the real down turn was years ago under Blair when a university education became the be all and end all.

The idea that university was everything and learning a trade was somehow secondary so if you didn’t go to university you wouldn’t get a decent job*

My two sisters went to Uni in the New Labour years and got good degrees. They were both temping doing agency work afterwards for years.

And a lot of people just go to Uni for the experience and the fun but they often enter the job market a few years behind those who left school at 18.

Except graduates are more likely to be in employment. Graduates earn on average £10k more than non graduates.

Who is going to be affected most if there are fewer university places, with an expectation that fewer children will go to university after school? It’s not the youngsters coming out of Winchester, Teddy’s, Malvern, Kings Canterbury or St Catherine’s.

University access has increased social mobility and given many poorer children opportunities and aspirations. Education is the most powerful tool for social change. If poor kids are pushed down the vocational route, the ‘elite’ will have an even greater advantage.

Except graduates are more likely to be in employment. Graduates earn on average £10k more than non graduates

But what about those that don’t go to university.

What is wrong with the vocational route.

What is wrong with learning a trade

And why if there are so many graduates earning £10k more than their non university going peers do so many, (about 85%) not earn enough for long enough to pay off their university loan.

I've seen mothers begging to feed their kids. That's poverty

Ops answer to that-

Is that not comparable to visiting a food bank?

How the fuck is that anywhere near the same thing? Food out of a bin, food from a food bank. Which choice would you pick OP?

I'm guessing you've never traveled to be so incredibly ignorant.

And that’s partly why we have a trade deficit in this country.
There is a lack of perceived value in trades, it’s not perceived as a desirable profession anymore. It’s not pushed or thought of as a job, it’s not respected.

Trades can be really lucrative, you have a skill and can set up your own business. It's more rewarding and can out-earn corporate office jobs. Yet all the middle-class kids get told it's lower-class and they should become bankers/lawyers/accountants. Shame because a lot of them probably would have enjoyed a trade a lot more.

Will probably. Eventually fall
To a divide between people that inherit and don’t

And people that can afford to buy a house or not

The two biggest differ exes that can affect your wealth imo

Trades are also male-dominated, sadly. Women are distinctly discouraged from practical activity.

Trades are also male-dominated, sadly. Women are distinctly discouraged from practical activity.

In what way are they discouraged?

Odd question. How long have you got? Were you never told that you couldn't have practical toys as a child, because they were for boys? I was. Certain jobs, you are told at least in certain sections of society, are for men. I was in a school quite recently where one of the teachers told their class that there were different jobs for boys and girls, that was just how the world was. Education in practical areas is generally lacking for girls compared to boys. There are also fewer female role models in these areas.

In what way are they encouraged? Maybe I've lived a sheltered MC life but I've never, ever heard of a girl being encouraged to go into plumbing, electrics, bricklaying or carpentry. Fashion/graphic design is about the most trade-y you get told about as a woman.

I am not from a sheltered middle class background, fwiw. If anything I think it's worse in the lower classes but that's just on the basis of wondering at this moment, no lengthy consideration or discussions with people.
Any women going into these trades with men around is going to be subjected to a lot of sexist harassment and "banter", and would have to prove themselves to be much better than the men in order to be accepted. Unfortunately since the trades are largely male, most of the women will have to deal with men.

@Oliversmumsarmy

Except graduates are more likely to be in employment. Graduates earn on average £10k more than non graduates

But what about those that don’t go to university.

What is wrong with the vocational route.

What is wrong with learning a trade

And why if there are so many graduates earning £10k more than their non university going peers do so many, (about 85%) not earn enough for long enough to pay off their university loan.

Nothing with not going to university. Our son chose to go directly into a commission and get his degree through the forces. What is wrong is poor children not being encroach aim high, to think university is not for them, to accept limitations based on parental income. If we restrict access to university it is poor children who will miss out on opportunities to escape poverty.

I agree with Cherry a lot.

I appreciate the kind comments about me, but I think the reason I was able to overcome shitty circumstances is because I came from a family who were evangelical about the power of education as a form of social mobility. My dad grew up working class and in relative poverty but passed the 11+ and went to grammar school and then Cambridge. He raised me with high educational expectations, and was very active in teaching me and instilling good educational values in me from practically toddlerhood onward. That gave me a kind of road map for how to get my life back on track.