Why does the UK have so many poor people?

[KenDodd]

Just that really.
Why do you think?

Overly unequal wealth distribution isnt because of capitalism... it's good to have entrepreneurs, innovators... who else is going to create jobs (that pays for civil servants and public services)?

we have a crap/unfair/overly complex taxation system, a polarised and underperforming state schooling system and inefficient benefits/welfare system to help the poor, disabled and disenfranchised (I didnt grow up here and I noticed there ar so many charities)

I think there are lots of reasons, but generally if state education was better, there would be more opportunities for all to get jobs/careers/trades that suit them it would help.

I also think budgeting and finance should be taught in schools. As an adult I'm often shocked by other adults spending habits - buying phones, cars, holidays on credit, then struggling to pay the debts. Not saying all poor people do this, but we consume so much and expect so much, actually theres nothing wrong with driving an old car and wearing old clothes (said by someone who does this!).

I absolutely despise this notion that there are loads of benefit claimants throwing away money on fags and booze!! It's very few, a minority who do this.

I expect to get the stock reply of 'well I know so many on benefits spunking all their money at the off license' , 'my sister in law / neighbour / school friend who's not worked a day in their lives' ....

The vast majority if we are lucky enough to have any money left over, we spend it on crafts for the Kids, or a trip out for them, a new bath mat to replace the worn out one, maybe a cheap mascara for ourselves.

Shock horror that such things should be able to be had occasionally by those in receipt of state help in one of the richest countries in the world!!

It seems to suit some to portray poorer people as feckless, and they'll only be happy when we are eating lentils and rice at every meal etc.

It seems lots of people think that if you're not living in an empty unheated room with one set of clothes only eating gruel they can't claim to be poor and should be grateful. Even if people are doing all the above while working 40 hours a week, they still shouldn't complain as it's worse in India. Why is it ok for working people to be so poor that they can't even afford a takeaway coffee? Why is this described as a luxury? It's only a fucking cup of coffee. Should low paid people have absolutely nothing but the very bare essentials? Is that the country we want? I just can't believe the whole attitude that poor people shouldn't even have takeaway coffee, and if they do spend £3 on a cappuccino then it's no wonder they're poor, own fault.

@KenDodd

Just that really. Why do you think?

In comparison to?

Plenty of people don't buy takeaway coffee as it's expensive for what it is, of course everyone should be able to afford treats and be able to access things they enjoy, but £3+ on coffee a day when you can buy a tub of coffee, sugar and milk for not much more than that and it'll last ages makes it a luxury for a lot of people, it's not a good example. No one said it was okay that people were struggling, just some have disputed the fact that it hasn't been hard in the past for people. What would be your resolution OP, and giving people more money alone isn't an option, as that doesn't actually change the system which is disadvantaging many.

I think there are lots of reasons, but generally if state education was better, there would be more opportunities for all to get jobs/careers/trades that suit them it would help

I think the real down turn was years ago under Blair when a university education became the be all and end all.

The idea that university was everything and learning a trade was somehow secondary so if you didn’t go to university you wouldn’t get a decent job

Even now despite the figures of about 85% of university graduates not being able to earn enough for long enough to pay off the debt people still go to uni thinking that it will somehow get them a great job.

Those that couldn’t get into a university it left with no where to go.

Those that aren’t academic can’t even learn a trade as now you have to have GCSEs to do anything other than a level 1 course

Just because you don’t have an English and Maths GCSE doesn’t mean you are too stupid to be able to work in anything other than a minimum wage job.

Nurses and teachers start on salaries of around 24k ??

The answer to the OP’s question is within a lot of the answers, a lot of people here effectively saying “Oh people here aren’t REALLY poor, because other countries have poorer people”*

As of that makes the increasing levels and numbers of people in poverty acceptable.

*These people probably vote Tory

If anyone's interested, look up how the new Universal Credit system's rules are working out for single Parents trying to get an education. HNC and degree students are having to drop out, especially student nurses, due to the way UC calculates student finance and deducts it.

It's not even just degree courses, it's even worse for vocational courses or access courses. I want to do an NC Childcare course, but if I enrol, I have been told by UC that I will still have to meet my commitments to search for work for 25 hrs per week, be available at all times for job centre appointments, and take up any paid work, or be sanctioned. Making it impossible just to do this course. Same applies for all courses below HNC level.

It's been made almost impossible to better yourself if you are a Parent.

These are changes only implemented since Universal Credit. Previously it was much more achievable. There are campaigns by Child Poverty groups, but not many people know that these changes have been put in place.

Social mobility, eh!!

Because costs that you can do little about are relatively expensive compared to what they used to be. Housing, childcare and transport have all been rising beyond inflation for decades. If someone is paying £800 a month rent and £100 on transport and £1000 on childcare then that is a bigger reason as to why they are skint than £5 on Netflix.
Luxuries used to be expensive. I can remember when video recorders were £600. Lots of luxuries are cheap now. People get riled about takeaway coffee, tv and smartphones not because they are expensive but because they are indolent. Spend your spare money on wool or compost and suddenly youre entirely reasonable.
I KNOW smartphones are expensive in themselves but very good value on a cost per use basis and there is a huge second hand market and not everyone queues outside apple for the lasted iphone.

Good, reliable and cheap subsidised wrap around childcare, a subsidised, integrated public transport system and an overhaul of private rent alongside massive investment in council housing would go a long way to alleviating inequality imo.

@KenDodd

It seems lots of people think that if you're not living in an empty unheated room with one set of clothes only eating gruel they can't claim to be poor and should be grateful. Even if people are doing all the above while working 40 hours a week, they still shouldn't complain as it's worse in India. Why is it ok for working people to be so poor that they can't even afford a takeaway coffee? Why is this described as a luxury? It's only a fucking cup of coffee. Should low paid people have absolutely nothing but the very bare essentials? Is that the country we want? I just can't believe the whole attitude that poor people shouldn't even have takeaway coffee, and if they do spend £3 on a cappuccino then it's no wonder they're poor, own fault.

@KenDodd this is exactly what I meant in my post on the first page when I said people in the UK have Stockholm syndrome.

Because the wages in the UK are shit. They’re honestly a joke. A lot of people in the UK are wage slaves. Because of the weird history around class, people then take pride in being dirt poor and never asking for help or better wages. You see it on here all the time. It’s like they glorify the Dickensian era, like a kind of Stockholm syndrome.

So many people on this thread are begrudging poor people anything more than a few crumbs of daily bread to see them through their horrible lives. It's perverted.

In my opinion, there is an over reliance on benefits and sadly a culture of laziness and blame rather than a striving to better yourself by learning and pushing yourself.

Wow, you were at the back of the queue when empathy was being handed out!!

I have to shake my head at those who comment about people not "striving to better yourself". I bet you would be the first to complain when the rubbish wasn't collected, the cleaning not done, no-one to serve you in shops etc. because everyone was working at high paying jobs. Do stop and think before you come out with this judgemental rubbish.

I wonder if it was a good idea to bring in in-work benefits, I mean it was probably well intentioned but it's just normalised poverty wages and let employers off the hook.

I have plenty of empathy and have relatives who live in extreme poverty, though not in this country. I just can't believe what I see here. I always think if things are free rather than earned people value them less.

I grew up in absolute poverty, before my grandparents took over. The sort with no running water, begging for food and busking in the streets, no shoes. In my case, this was because my mother was a drug addict with raging mental health issues; it was a money management problem, rather than a money one.

She was an extreme example, but my mum lived like that because she needed huge amounts of help to regain her life. Mental health and support services have been slashed. Benefits have been slashed. Every form of help is now harder to get, or gone. Not everyone is a chronic drug addict like my mother, but the combination of lowering benefits, sanctions and removal of support has pushed 1000s of people in to spirals of debt and money mismanagement, whether avoidable or unavoidable.

Combined with this, the cost of housing has risen hugely and childcare is crippling for many. These are non negotiable, no way around paying for them of you can't get them free. It's hard to budget effectively when almost all your money is gone immediately.

It's much easier now for people to be pushed in to debt. Debt is what causes poverty, and what makes it crippling when you're there. I lived happily on £500 pm last year with 2 children (no mortgage temporarily) which was completely fine. But with even one £30 contract and one £50 debt repayment a month, it would have been a different story.

As an immigrant in the UK, I do find it very sad that such a rich country has so much wealth inequality. Property, childcare and other expenses can make or break people's prospects.

In our town there are areas that are traditionally seen as being deprived and have high levels of crime. Essentially they are ghettos. Most middle class people wouldn't step foot in them apart from to drive through let alone live there. Same with certain schools - parents would rather move or suddenly become religious to ensure their offspring don't end up there so kids tend to mix with other kids from the same naice m/c backgrounds. Equally those children from poorer backgrounds rarely attend the same after school activities due to cost. My children did a sport that required some fairly expensive equipment way beyond the reach of the kids on the council estate next to our sports area.
It's like the 'poor' have assumed a reputation of being irresponsible and feckless, not like us and to be avoided at all costs, you only have to read some of the school threads and 'is x area rough, should I move there?' posts.

What a load of ignorant codswallop on this thread.

I was sleeping rough on the streets from the age of 15. No bank account. No access to education or healthcare. No food except what I could shoplift or beg, or very occasions things like the free food Sikh temples give out.

I lived well below the poverty line until I was 25, on disability benefits, in a bedsit with no heating and black mould all over the ceiling. Maybe £10 a week for food. No outings, only supermarket clothes, yes I had a TV but only Freeview.

And no, I’ve never smoked or used drugs, no children, have never purchased a lottery ticket or a scratch card, and was teetotal till I was in my 30s (by which time I had money).

I’m now 40-something and have a decent-ish job and income but it took many years of extreme hard work, I’ve had to sacrifice having children, will probably be living in a small flat my entire life, and am a decade behind my peers professionally. It took me till I was 23 to be allowed to finish secondary school, and that took years of extreme hard work and dedication!

Accessing healthcare was another nightmare that took years of fighting.

People have no idea.

@SnuggyBuggy

I wonder if it was a good idea to bring in in-work benefits, I mean it was probably well intentioned but it's just normalised poverty wages and let employers off the hook.

Absolutely. Global companies paying such low wages on zero hours that people working full time need benefits is immoral.

Even in smaller companies, if you can’t afford to pay your staff a living wage then it’s not really a successful business, it’s a hobby. We shouldn’t be subsidising it. It’s not being an entrepreneur; it’s cashing in on others work.

If you can afford to pay for a Pret salad and coffee each day, it’s going to add up to around £1.5k a year. That is a significant amount of money and would fall into non essential ie luxury levels. Most working poor people could not afford that. As an odd treat, maybe but daily it’s an extravagance. It’s also not the marker of poverty.

That said benefits should be safety net not a lifestyle choice. They should enable those who need support to live with dignity, but not encourage those who can work not to.
It’s a hard balancing act that polarised wealth, a consumerist culture which values possessions and underinvestment in education, early years support and health exacerbates.

The breakdown of the family unit.

Sky high rents and piss poor wages.

I hate how a discussion on financial inequality in the UK always turns into "we aren't poor you should go to India" or something similar on mn. Certain posters just refuse to talk about it, even though they have never been to India..

And the assumption that you're poor cos you eat out a lot of buy a £4 coffee everyday... No, poor people don't have takeaways or coffee's out or gym memberships or anything else YOU'D need to give up to feel poor.

@CathyComesHome, sorry if this sounds patronising but well done for what you have achieved, you should be proud of yourself .