Why does the UK have so many poor people?

[KenDodd]

Just that really.
Why do you think?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pip-claims-disability-benefits-dwp-waiting-times-delays-a8853666.html?amp

www.z2k.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Z2K_disability-report-2018_Final.pdf

www.gov.scot/news/majority-of-disability-benefit-claims-refused-by-uk-government/

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/misery-vulnerable-people-half-disability-20575436.amp

www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2020/january/disabled-man-starved-death-after-dwp-wrongly-stopped-his-benefits

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pip-waiting-time-deaths-disabled-people-die-disability-benefits-personal-independence-payment-dwp-a8727296.html?amp

CayrolBaaaskin I'm sorry but if you have worked for agencies that support disadvantaged people then you will be very well aware of just how limited their reach is, and how difficult it is to build trust in the system among those who's major problem is there from birth. You will also be well aware of how the funding has slipped, and how the statistics are massaged to give politicians muck to sling around and trade among their ivory towers.
You would also be aware that there is such a thing as absolute poverty. I am sorry that the Ukraine is worse, but the fact is the UK has greater inequality and greater poverty than any other developed and industrialised country in the EU. There is no good reason for it. There is wealth here, great wealth: the land ownership figures show just how poorly it is distributed.
I also would like to take exception to a comment upthread whinging about how we all blame the older generations who lived through war and hardship. I think was from Pixxie7 or something similar. The baby boomers did not fight the war, and there is plenty of evidence to show that they are the richest generation of retirees ever, and much the richest generation living. I can't find the original research I read proving this, but the Daily Mail has it available with references to the ONS www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5658213/Britains-older-generation-wealthiest-happiest-ever.html

*How have the elder generations screwed people over?

I’m 56. I grew up in a house with no central heating. My mum was a widow, we had absolutely no money. How is that screwing over the younger generation? Please do tell.

Any ‘screwing over’ was the fault of the government. Not individual elders. Try living under Thatcher for a bit, then talk about screwing over.

Nasty ageist comment*
late to this but are you me?? Apart from being 56, I could have written that!

I did live under Thatcher. I grew up in the Miner's Strikes. I know there were people who fought what she did, and there were many who disliked Blair after. Nevertheless there were many who agreed, who voted her in, and took the bribes she offered. Many descended like vultures on the various privatisations and right to buy, and then took every chance they could to get in on buy to let as well.

As a generation, as a class, as a whole, have I said that enough? "What I tell you three times is true". That group sold us out. They sold public assets so they could pocket the profit individually. Some of that will eventually find its way, probably to the millennials, via private wills and legacies. Those of us who do not have such legacies and inheritances will lose out. It's that simple, and it's why inequality has grown. You, a a class, as a group, as a generation, took what had been given to you by the previous generations in trust, and instead of passing it down, dismantled everything that was owned by all of us.

But the local authority is obliged to house 15 year olds and they and many other agencies work to do so.

And 15 year olds who aren’t living at home usually have very good reasons for leaving (or have been kicked out), there are many many reasons why these young people struggle, local authorities are massively stretched and don’t have time or resources to do the work needed to support them.

Support, care and protection for 15/16/17 year olds is sketchy at best and non-existent in real practical terms. I can easily believe a 15 year old would be left to sofa surf or sleep on the streets.

@KenDodd Yes agree, expensive housing is a huge contributor to poverty.
As is a tax credits system that allows companies to post multi billion profits, yet pay staff below cost of living wages.
Why on earth we haven't gone back to social housing is a mystery.
I can only think that both tories and labour govts have a vested interest in keeping things as they are, Blair did nothing about social housing.

Of course poverty is relative, one can argue that people in slum housing in the early 20thC were better off than peasants in the 17thC.

Did anyone see that Panorama Undercover Social Working? I remember there was a 15 year old with nowhere to go and all they could tell him was they didn't have a placement for him and he needed to be searching for one himself. I mean I hope that sort of situation is and was rare, it was disturbing as fuck.

When we compare it should be with similar countries, like France Spain Italy and Germany not India and Zimbabwe, neither should it be with countries with much lower populations like Sweden or Brunei
In France they have similar problems the gilets Haines have not gone away they are just no longer reported on, the outskirts of Paris have huge estates of poor tower block housing with large immigrants population high youth unemployment, Spain has even higher youth unemployment, Italy has huge problems particularly in the South around Naples where Mafia are using covid to strengthen their position as they provide "help", Germany generally does better but a little research will soon show its not all roses and picnics either.
None of the above makes some of the UK problems OK but sometimes it is easy to see the rest of Europe with rose tinted spectacles. Racism is a problem here but it is much worse elsewhere and not fitting in is judged more harshly in Scandinavia right wing nationalist parties do better there than here.

For me the main reasons are the high cost of housing relative to wages especially in London and South east, zero hour contracts and fluctuating incomes make money management difficult also a culture of consumerism to make economy work doesn't help

Where you live matters there are still large areas of the country where you can buy 2bed flat or terrace house for under 100-125k but this is a pipe dream in the South, living on 24k per year is much easier in Gateshead, Dumbarton and Wolverhampton than in Brixton, Croydon or Guildford

Poverty is always comparative. But there is a measure of poverty in the UK CPAG
"Each year, the Government publishes a survey of income poverty in the UK called Households Below Average income (HBAI). This survey sets the poverty line in the UK at 60 per cent of the median UK household income. In other words, if a household’s income is less than 60 per cent of this average, HBAI considers them to be living in poverty. This is the definition of relative poverty, whereas absolute poverty is where a household’s income is less than 60 per cent of the median as it stood in 2011.

One in five households in the UK have an income below the poverty line, after their housing costs are taken into account. 30 per cent of children live in households below the poverty line (after housing costs). This is almost double the poverty rate (16 per cent) for pensioners."

Regardless of the images that come to mind when you think of poverty. The reality is that in the UK if people need food banks to survive there is poverty here. There are children living in sub standard housing, who don't get three meals a day or a winter coat. The housing costs in the UK are high, food is expensive, you need a phone and an internet connection to claim benefits. There is a huge gap between rich and poor which causes people to feel poorer and more excluded from society.

Better wages, better housing security (more affordable, more regulated), redistributed wealth, higher taxes would help to create a more equal society.

Historically though, tradespeople have been the bright working classes who felt that university was not for them

Depends on how you define “bright”

Ds is “bright” and probably middle class
He can discuss politics and hold a sensible conversation on all manner of things.

He can fill out his tax forms and generally make himself understood when talking to someone.
He can plumb in a bathroom and put a radiator into a room where none existed. He can tile and paint and lay a wooden floor.
He has 1 GCSE.

So that means he can’t do anything but work in minimum wage jobs (if he could actually get a job) because he is too thick to do anything else.

Even on this thread we have people still thinking that you show how “bright” you are by how many GCSEs you pass.

GCSEs just show you can pass an exam. Not how intelligent you are.
One of the least intelligent people I know is another mother who has a list of qualifications to her name but outside her qualifications the world does not exist.

How she didn’t have her child taken into care is beyond most of us who knew her.

@TheWashingMachine

As other posters have said poverty is relative. In my opinion, there is an over reliance on benefits and sadly a culture of laziness and blame rather than a striving to better yourself by learning and pushing yourself. Cut your cloth according to your means, don't have children of you can't afford to give them a good standard of life.

sorry haven't RTFT yet.

But I love posts like this, it really let's ignorance shine through so brightly.

Probably later in the thread, will declare how their parents or grand parents lived in real poverty but pulled themselves up by their boot straps.

it's like a borrowed medal to polish. Yet they will have no first hand experience or concept of what it took to achieve, The mental load, or seeing friends and family also try to do the same but never managed too, either by more obstacles been thrown in the mix, or less lucky breaks or mentally(due to poverty) not being able to cope etc.

in a few cases it'll be people who "done good" against the odds, by getting a good education out of a failing under resourced school or something. Everyone else is feckless.

When poverty is generational it very difficult for children to see society and opportunities outside of their reality when growing up.

Re: my earlier comment about generations, it is class analysis and that is vague on specifics. It's as accurate a generalisation to say the richer groups sold the working classes out. But that generation is when the rot set in. How we overturn it now, two generations of bribery later, I don't know. We seem to lose every time.

I've been thinking about this, and an early poster mentioned that the problem is that a regular life requires two salaries now. Massive over generalisations of course but if couples split up one salary won't pay for a family size home. So that's why there are so many hard-up people , we need more quality housing that is affordable on one salary - so very expensive housing is the reason IMO.

@Mabelface

I was a single parent in the 90s.my rent and council tax were paid in full and I just about had enough money to manage on. Benefits haven't risen with the cost of living and now people who are in the position I was have to contribute towards their rent and ct, leaving them with little to pay their bills and eat. Benefits are in no way generous.

Benefits are also disproportionately cut in comparison to any increase in salary so that a big jump in salary doesn't mean a big jump in disposable income.

As a single parent receiving CTC & WTC I've been offered a new job with an £8,000 increase in salary - the disposable income increase is £200 a month.

I find this discussion very interesting and im not going to comment ,least of all criticise. My only contribution shall be my personal experience. I was born in the 60s into a broken home and a poor one. I have siblings and my parents split when we were all very young. I was brought up completely on state benefits in a council flat in a poor area of a major northern city. I may have told this tale of woe on here before so if you recall it,please click on to the next contribution.

Some memories of childhood..

Being fostered out several times due to family issues
Existing on charity from the catholic church eg providing some household furnishings, second hand clothing, maybe a food parcel for the poor at xmas (those packet and tins schools collect to make up parcels),,delivered by the parish priest.

My mother eating less so that we could all eaT.

our home being freezing cold in winter as it only had a coal fire. No carpets only lino, coats on the beds to keep us warm.

My mother picking up discarded clothing from the streets and washing them for us to wear

Me stealing coal in a pram from the railway sidings to heat the home.

having a chicken at christmas was an annual treat..

Getting free school meals and milk

most of the meagre furnishings in the home were given to us from charities etc

As a young boy,getting involved in low level crime. Knowing a young lad across the road who shagged a local woman in exchange for a shilling for her gas meter.

Knowing another single mother nearby whos son would always tell me about the various "uncles" who would call from time to time..

Despite this,we all got fed though only with basic food. The rent and bills were always paid.

My mother died of cancer before she got to draw a state pension .

My lucky break came when i passed the 11plus and got sent to grammar school.

In all my working life i have never had a single days unemployment. Ive paid the state back many times over for my upbringing. I now have a net worth on paper in excess of 75% of the uk population according to ONS stats. I never went to university though thinking back ,it would have been a nice to have.

I started from a position behind many others in the race so would be highly unlikely to draw level or overtake many of them.

I'm still working and am in the higher earnings bracket.

I feel i had a lot of luck as i could quite easily have failed.

Poverty is relative.

@cathycomeshome that's where apprenticeships used to come in. My dad did it, poor kid, left school at 15 with one GCSE (social studies) and apprenticed as a sparky. He's very rich now from starting his own businesses.

I recently completed my own apprenticeship aged 24 - with a BA, MA, 13 GCSES, 4 A levels. Admittedly highly competitive firm and industry.

The job market is so overloaded with graduates that apprenticeships are thy e new grad scheme. If you manage to get on one without a degree then you often need A levels.

The unqualified aren't being given a crying chance and it's a massive failure in the 'everyone should go to uni' system.

[quote CorianderLord]@cathycomeshome that's where apprenticeships used to come in. My dad did it, poor kid, left school at 15 with one GCSE (social studies) and apprenticed as a sparky. He's very rich now from starting his own businesses.

I recently completed my own apprenticeship aged 24 - with a BA, MA, 13 GCSES, 4 A levels. Admittedly highly competitive firm and industry.

The job market is so overloaded with graduates that apprenticeships are thy e new grad scheme. If you manage to get on one without a degree then you often need A levels.

The unqualified aren't being given a crying chance and it's a massive failure in the 'everyone should go to uni' system. [/quote]
I don’t think it’s everyone should go to university but rather everyone with intellectual potential should have the opportunity to go to university. Wealth - or lack of it - should not be a consideration.

Bright young le should be able to get a handful of GCSEs and parents who don’t encourage/expect/support/value GCSEs as a fundamental right of all young people who fall into just short of average or higher intellectual potential bands do them a huge disservice.

Children should get GCSEs unless they have a significant learning disability. Even then they should be supported to achieve, if at all possible. All to often children are written off as ‘not academic’ when they are actually being damned with low expectations. Five GCSEs is hardly ‘academic’.

The Tories. Don't need to say anymore.

@cherrypavlova I agree that the opportunity should be there. But it's pushed as the ONLY route for anyone with a few A levels however good. So you get kids going to do shit degree courses with no prospects (I don't mean Arts, I mean the really random crap) or courses they are not suited to at bad unis scrabbling for students (my ex went to do computer sciences with two Ds and a C at A Level).

When many 18yo would be brilliant in trades and they're not shown that there can be money, independence and success there

And yes they should all get GCSEs but many are not encouraged to in their home environments for some reason.

And yet graduates earn on average £10k more than non graduates of same age.
I agree there are other ways to degrees and other options but no child should be put off a degree because of money. For many, many youngsters it is the route out of poverty.

Our son chose not to go to university but took a Commission and did his degree in the forces, so I understand other routes may hold appeal and advantage but....for many it is the system that needs to change to allow access for all who want it. Education is never wasted.

For many, many youngsters it is the route out of poverty.

I agree, along with learning a trade or joining the forces. University isn't the only option, and even when I was at school it wasn't sold as that, we had talks from the local college about their courses and talks from plumbers etc and many people followed that route and are now very well paid. Other than that though, those who went straight into work after school have reached a ceiling at around £20k, many much lower. Out of my graduate friends, even though with 'pointless' degrees, we are all on £30k plus. I'm on a wage I could never have dreamt of growing up, definitely wouldn't have had the opportunity if I hadn't gone to university.

When i was at big school (1975-1980) only the elite went to Uni and they were almost revered. When i left school at 16,quality apprenticeships were ten a penny. All the major employers would advertise in the newspapers offering positions. I couldnt possibly aspire to going to uni as i wasnt bright enough. Id started from a low baseline. I left school at 16 and got an apprenticeship and it has stood me in good stead all my life.

Times change and nearly everyone goes to FE/Uni. Quality apprenticeships are thin on the ground though there are plenty of crap ones/fake ones. The requirements to even apply and be considered are higher. Because so many people get to go to Uni there is inevitably fierce competition for grad openings. It must be tough now.

it's a long one........

In the 90s YT (youth training) was still a thing although funding was already being reduced. My YT centre went from having construction/building department, Catering department, admin department and joinery department, to just admin and joinery. The others where dissolved.

YT was an alternative to A levels and college. There was no criteria to enter just have an interview and show willing.

it was a god send for teens like me, who at 16 was living on friends sofas and had never even shown up for my GCSE exams. So I had nothing to my name.

You could transfer from one department to another if you felt your chosen department wasn't actually what you wanted.

I chose joinery. got a YT wage of £35-40 a week. I later moved to admin, but to achieve the NVQ I had to pass some numeracy and literacy level. They brought me up to scratch in a few months which all my years at school had failed to do.

I had come from a middle class home, had ponies growing up and stuff. But due to dyslexia and going off the rails starting at 13 I was never going to be able to follow my siblings to Uni.

the training I received was my life line, you were treated as adult, and consequences of lateness, not turning up, not filling in time sheets where dealt with the way it would if you were employed. no detentions no reports no long lectures of how important exams and education is. You just lost pay, and had a talking too about work expectation. But it was losing money that made most "get it"

We trained on site, and when we were deemed ready where found placements. with a travel allowance, and advice with travel arrangements to and from work. They also helped and advised with finding accommodation.

I was lucky in that I wanted to move back home at 17 and my dad convinced my mum to allow me home. they bought a banger for me and helped with insurance and tax.

by late 18 I was on a full time wage and was company secretary to a small Ltd family firm, doing everything including tax returns and payroll. the firm I worked for was in a trade, started up by someone else who'd gone through the YT system then grown their own business. But had no idea about how to run the admin and wages side.

With the above experience I then moved to an accounts department in a blue chip company.

I bought a house at 19.

At 21 I went to uni to do a HND in Architecture, which was 2 years then I could start on the 2nd year of the degree.

TBH I wished I hadn't bothered with Uni, the career I had was really good and I had already gathered more qualifications, and future opportunities where huge.
But I think I wanted to do uni to prove a point. the point wasn't worth making really.
I found I was happier in the career I had just left.

YT and apprenticeships should be how they use to be, and nothing to be ashamed of either. The teens who took them ranged from teens like I was total drop outs, to teen who had good GCSE but didn't want to do A levels and didn't really know what they wanted career wise. It was a good mix. we all did a lot of growing up from 16 to 18, I think that was the only thing we had in common, We all wanted to be taken seriously and be more adult. School and college didn't offer independence and being treated as a person. Not everyone wants to be a student for years on end.

if I was a teen now I would be well and truly fucked.

Extract from a post upthread on the subject of the ‘baby boomers’ apparently making younger people poor.

Many descended like vultures on the various privatisations and right to buy, and then took every chance they could to get in on buy to let as well.

I’ve no skin in the game here and no actions in this area to defend. Nor am I of the generation being criticised.

If you had been a bloke working in a factory in 1987 or whatever, and you had a bit of spare money, and you thought you’d buy some of the British Gas or BT shares when they floated, would you deserve criticism for trying to improve your lot? I don’t think so. Whatever the long term impact of privatising utilities, one effect would have been to share some wealth out. People were limited in how many they could buy to prevent wealthy people grabbing loads of shares. Would you have preferred only the rich, and/or investment banks, to have a crack at buying those shares? Why are ordinary people taking that chance described as ‘vultures’?

Similarly, if you’d been paying rent on a council house for years and wanted to own your own place, and the chance was offered to buy it, would taking that chance make you ‘a vulture’? Or just an ordinary person who saw a chance to own their home and share in the financial security the home buying middle classes had enjoyed for years?

That group sold us out. They sold public assets so they could pocket the profit individually. Some of that will eventually find its way, probably to the millennials, via private wills and legacies. Those of us who do not have such legacies and inheritances will lose out. It's that simple, and it's why inequality has grown. You, a a class, as a group, as a generation, took what had been given to you by the previous generations in trust, and instead of passing it down, dismantled everything that was owned by all of us.

Are you confusing the over 55s with the politicians of the day? Save your criticism for them. Are you seriously suggesting that if BT, British Gas, BP, British Aerospace etc had not been privatised then there would be no poverty? As if.