Argh my own husband doesn't agree that he's racist

[Chaotic45]

Here to vent!

My husband remarked on a sad piece of news that a white business owner had been brutally attacked attacked by 4 black men as he tried to board up his business in the USA.

His comment was along the lines of "and they wonder why black men have a reputation for being trouble makers".

My response was that just because 4 men who happened to be black did that- it has no bearing on black men in general.

DH thought I was being over sensitive. I said that had the violence been carried out by 4 white men, 4 ginger haired women, 4 old men with beards then he wouldn't see this as saying that any of these groups were trouble makers based in their appearance.

DH doesn't get it. He says I'm over sensitive and jumping on the bandwagon. He's a good man, but he's racist isn't he, in which case I guess he's not such a good man.

@Porpoises agreed.

Sorry , I don't think that is overtly racist, and if this is the only remark he has made than I think he is correct in his assessment of you.
Your argument can be used on any side, which would mean no one would be able to comment about any group. Are the ppl protesting about the situation wrong because 'just because 4 men who happened to be policemen/people in power did that- it has no bearing on policemen/people in power in general

A lot of black people are also wondering what the point of all the violence is for. In fact more white people on my Facebook than black people are supporting it. My family is not in support of this violence. It is utterly unproductive.

@Inappropriatefemale In the US, black men are far more likely to be arrested and/or incarcerated than white men, regardless of the rate of criminality. That’s where those statistics come from - the black prison population rate is much higher than the equivalent for white people. It’s not that black men are inherently criminal, it’s that they live in a (racist) society that disproportionately criminalises them.

OP, your statement was correct. Just because four individuals made those choices, it doesn’t make black men as a whole (and what does that even mean anyway) any more likely to be ‘troublemakers’ so the ‘reputation’ is stupid and racist. However, perhaps it’s more constructive to your DH to acknowledge that he said something that is unthinkingly racist, and should reflect on where that might come from and how to challenge his beliefs, than to tell him he’s a racist, as his reaction is more likely to be a dismissive ‘no I’m not!’.

Be subt and make him watch Trial By Media on Netflix with you. Or When They See Us.

See how he reacts.

It's funny though, when you see a person expressing thoughts like that it's hard to regain respect for them.

His comment doesn't magically undo everything that you thought made him a good man.

I’m glad he understood your analogy. However, it sounds as if he needs a lot more exposure to materials on racial bias. Over the past year, I’ve been noticing so much more the colour of the skin and the sex of people on tv, especially news channels. Ive very recently started to watch CNN early in the morning. What I see on this early morning slot is women are pretty much not represented, but poc are.... or at least right now.

When powerful white men rape children and it makes the news, does tour husband comment on how bad it makes all other white men look?

@lemmathelemmin

When powerful white men rape children and it makes the news, does tour husband comment on how bad it makes all other white men look?

But many people in America are attacking the police and shouting that all police are racist because of the actions of a minority. A I keep seeing is "ACAB" on certain social media sights so are they not doing the same thing as ops husband?

In the US then statistically blacks are more likely to be criminals, and that’s not me saying this for my own opinion, it’s me saying this as I’ve read this info and seen it said, maybe your DH is coming from this sort of stats to make this remark?

No they are not. They are more likely to be incarcerated and their crimes attract harsher sentences. That's not the same thing at all.

I don't necessarily agree with ACAB ("all cops are bastards"), but it's a different thing, at least in some people's meaning. They believe that policing is so corrupt, or so much an arm of a corrupt state, that the only moral option for a police officer is to resign. I.e. if they weren't "a bastard" they'd stop being a cop.

Sorry no specific argument but this is good.

In the US then statistically blacks are more likely to be criminals, and that’s not me saying this for my own opinion, it’s me saying this as I’ve read this info and seen it said, maybe your DH is coming from this sort of stats to make this remark?

@Inappropriatefemale
97% of prisoners in the USA never had a trial. The prosecution offer a plea bargain of say 3 years against a risk of 30 years if it goes to trial. So 97% take the plea bargain. So when more young black men are in prison than any other demographic, that just means more were stopped by the police and arrested. It doesn't mean they committed more crimes, just that they don't fancy their chances in court.

I know that statistically there are more white sexual deviants than black but I meant crimes like robberies etc, it’s just what I’ve heard on some American crime docs.

@Inappropriatefemale

In the US then statistically blacks are more likely to be criminals, and that’s not me saying this for my own opinion, it’s me saying this as I’ve read this info and seen it said, maybe your DH is coming from this sort of stats to make this remark?

No, black people are more likely to be formally charged for supposed crimes compared to white people. Over 90% of people in US jails never even go to trial.

Also blacks are actual people, not blacks.

@Porpoises

I don't necessarily agree with ACAB ("all cops are bastards"), but it's a different thing, at least in some people's meaning. They believe that policing is so corrupt, or so much an arm of a corrupt state, that the only moral option for a police officer is to resign. I.e. if they weren't "a bastard" they'd stop being a cop.

We yes, that's my point. How do they expect people to get behind such an argument? How do they expect people to support them in their attacks on any police officer because he must be bad by virtue of the fact that he's still serving? If all decent police officers comply and resign where does that leave society?

Also blacks are actual people, not blacks.

I agree. Doesn't the same apply to white people though, because across boards posters have repeatedly referred to white people as "whites".

Oh for god's sake everyone put your pitchforks away.

OP - he's apologised. There's no need for you both to beat yourselves with birch rods over it.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Also blacks are actual people, not blacks.

I agree. Doesn't the same apply to white people though, because across boards posters have repeatedly referred to white people as "whites".

I haven’t personally seen anyone on MN use the term whites on the threads I have been on. I also don’t hear the term whites being used generally in society. I do sadly hear the term blacks far too often.

Here's a thread where the op refers to whites repeatedly

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3929110-Youre-white-you-havent-experienced-racism-2-title-amended-by-MNHQ-at-OPs-request

We yes, that's my point. How do they expect people to get behind such an argument? How do they expect people to support them in their attacks on any police officer because he must be bad by virtue of the fact that he's still serving? If all decent police officers comply and resign where does that leave society?

Well that's a totally different question :) and a fair one.

But you originally said "I keep seeing "ACAB" on certain social media sights so are they not doing the same thing as ops husband". I think ACAB, wherever you agree with it or not, is different than saying "all black people are [wherever characteristic]". Because being a cop is a choice, a political choice in the eyes of the prison abolitionists. Whereas being black is not a choice.

Compare "All Corbyn supporters are idiots" to "all women are idiots". Both are untrue in my view, but the first is expressing judgement on a group based on their viewpoints and life choices, whereas the second is existing judgement on a group based on an unchangeable characteristic. I think most people would find the latter more unacceptable.

@Porpoises

We yes, that's my point. How do they expect people to get behind such an argument? How do they expect people to support them in their attacks on any police officer because he must be bad by virtue of the fact that he's still serving? If all decent police officers comply and resign where does that leave society?

Well that's a totally different question :) and a fair one.

But you originally said "I keep seeing "ACAB" on certain social media sights so are they not doing the same thing as ops husband". I think ACAB, wherever you agree with it or not, is different than saying "all black people are [wherever characteristic]". Because being a cop is a choice, a political choice in the eyes of the prison abolitionists. Whereas being black is not a choice.

Compare "All Corbyn supporters are idiots" to "all women are idiots". Both are untrue in my view, but the first is expressing judgement on a group based on their viewpoints and life choices, whereas the second is existing judgement on a group based on an unchangeable characteristic. I think most people would find the latter more unacceptable.

That's an interesting point, though I think you would have much more support if someone said "all black people are..." or "all women are..."

Yes, police officers have the choice whether to do that job or not, but does that not actually make the danger to society worse? Allow the police to be attacked and abused so much that good officers exercise that choice and leave - how does that affect the whole of society, particularly in the US where I'm repeatedly seeing calls for citizens to exercise the second amendment - that'll end well.

That's an interesting point, though I think you would have much more support if someone said "all black people are..." or "all women are..."

Sorry, by support I meant I think more people would challenge those views and find it unacceptable.

Yeah those are good points. Up till now I've disagreed with ACAB, though not thought about it a great deal. The police defunding calls in the US are making me think about it more. I plan to read a bit more about their proposals, find out how they believe it could possibly work, before reaching an opinion.