What happens if you refuse to go back after furlough?

[Daffodil101]

Just idle Sunday morning musing, really.

Doesn’t apply to me, but two friends in two days have said that their employer wants them back and they aren’t going.

One is an estate agent - manager asked her to start back this week, she’s said no. The other works in a nail salon, meeting with manager suggests he is looking to open early July. She wants to wait until October.

Both furloughed on 80% though I think the nail bar owner is actually making up the other 20%. Where would you stand if you said no to going back? Could they ask you to pay back your furlough or would they keep you on at 80% until October?

I've worked throughout. Completely agree with people who couldn't getting pay/furlough but this cant last forever. The fallout from this will last years, higher taxes, more austerity, pay freezes, redundancies etc.

There is always a risk of catching illness from other people. If people are wearing masks and good hygiene and their safety has been risk assessed they will have to go back at some point. Sure they can refuse but I wouldn't expect to be paid!

I do feel for people who haven't worked as in some cases the world must seem a scary place and perhaps those of us who have continued working are little more used to the risk?. Ive still been careful, I've literally been to work and a supermarket that's it apart from a walk a few times a week.

*ask

I don’t think their employers would dismiss them, due to good relationships. The estate agent has been in her job for about 20 years and has worked at different branches of the company. The nail lady ( !) has really helped her employer out when they were short staffed - really gone out of her way.

I guess they could agree to leave.

Shielding is an excuse that won't work soon.

Like I say, they'll be told to take unpaid leave in that situation. Then all of sudden I'm betting 99% of people will return

They're both being ridiculous.

It's perfectly possible to value a house and respect social distancing. The owner could open all doors so the agent doesn't have to touch anything. They could wear a mask and gloves and wash their hands.

I can understand that working in a nail salon involves more risk but it's not as if they are opening next week, the owner is talking about July. And as a PP said you could ask clients to wear masks. Not wanting to work until October is ridiculous.

Are either of your friends in the "extremely vulnerable" category of people who are supposed to shield? Or living with anyone who is?

Or are they just some of the many over anxious people who think we should be on indefinite lockdown?

Do they have kids btw, if so I assume they are refusing to send them back to school/childcare?

So many people are going to be doing this. It’s awful this war is on where people are refusing to go back to work. I don’t think anyone could have guessed a percentage of the British public would have behaved this way.

For many I doubt it’s fear and more they want this to last as long as possible because it’s good for them, they like it. It’s shameful. And embarrassing. I don’t know if your friends are genuinely fearful or if it’s they just wish to string this out.

Personally I believe employers need to crack down hard on these people. Move them to unpaid leave then move to terminate their employment.

I think if there is a genuine issue, like child care or they are shielded it’s different, but just I’m scared so I don’t want to work, then it needs to be that’s fine, hand your notice in and the pay stops immediately.

I think a nail bar could do social distancing OK. Put up see through plastic booths to separate the workers from each other and the customers. Have hand holes at table level in the partitions for the clients to place their hands through. Workers and clients both wear masks. Probably have fewer technicians so they aren't bunched so close.
It's easier than a hair salon where they have to move around the person and get close to their head.

I was going to say same as PatchworkSack, I can understand the nail bar technician more. Difficult to social distance when you're in that job.

I can't socially distance in my role atm. I'm a CPN and have been redeployed temporarily to the depot clinic. Depots are slow release injections of anti psychotic medication. But the difference is mine is an essential role. Not knocking a nail technician but it's not so important.

I did wonder if I got another job and did not return to my furloughed job whether I'd have to pay back my furlough, after all I'm being paid to return to work?

If there is work for them to do then their furlough should end so either unpaid leave or dismissal.

I have been furloughed because my workplace is not allowed to open (hospitality) and I'm getting pretty fed up with employers and individuals taking the piss with furlough and giving the rest of us a bad name.

There are some very thick people around who think as Boris said furlough is available until Oct that means them and they can pick and choose to stay on 80% plus and do nothing.

I heard a phone in programme where a manager running a DIY store was struggling to contact her staff. Some weren’t answering the phone and others suddenly had someone living with them who was ‘shielding’.

Some people are incredibly selfish and don’t seem to recognise that WE are paying for this and eventually will need to be paid back.

People are deluded if they think businesses will survive just through the furlough payment scheme.

Business have costs to cover that isn't just salaries. Do people genuinely think they will get paid indefinitely until there's a vaccine? And that companies will somehow miraculously survive when people aren't working to fulfill the business needs?

Even if they are paid by the government the employer needs/ will need to reopen their business so will have to hire additional staff. This would be an issue once furlough ends and they have too many on the payroll.
Would your friends rather be out of a job? Very few people will be able to stay off until October.

I expect they will lose their job. If their employers want them back and they refuse, surely they will just get sacked?

I think if the employer has taken reasonable precautions for your safety, follows the government guidelines and provides PPE, where required then you can't really refuse. We all have to get back to work and use new work methods to enable this otherwise the economy and the county will go bankrupt. It's time now to man up assess the real risks not the perceived risk and get on with it.
I presume your friends are enjoying the fact that the lights are on, emergency cover is provided - fire, ambulance etc, food in available in the shops. If everyone took their attitude the we'd be in a sorry state.

Utterly selfish. I hope their employer finds someone to replace them. Shielding of course is a different issue, as is the lack of childcare.

Neither is vulnerable.

If you don't want to go back to work that fine, resign and let someone else take your job.

I do payroll for various companies, one bloke requested to be furloughed as he didn't want to work. He had his own van to travel to work in and was working in empty offices on his own. Cheeky fucker.

I also think that employers will remember, even subconsciously, which staff were reasonable, and which were not

Those companies that aren't able to contact their employees should start sending emails saying they'll start with dismissal procedures for those employed for under 2 years and disciplinary procedures for those others.
Or just say they won't be applying for furlough from x date. And the employees are more than welcome to take unpaid leave.
I'm guessing that the government furlough scheme will start covering fewer and fewer industries as time goes on.

So for example, if BoJo says 'all nail bars can open today' then as of 3 weeks later (or whenever) nailbars won't be able to claim furlough payments.

Then the employees will not get paid.... And boom, all of a sudden, they'll come back. Or be replaced by someone else.

Like I say, money talks. It's easy to say 'no thanks' when you're in 100%/80% pay. But when you're looking at Universal Credit and that mortgage payment and going 'ummm.... UC doesn't make a dent....' then you might be willing to go back to work!

Hopefully the company still exists and they haven't replaced you by then....!

As employees they have the right not to work if they reasonably believe there to be serious and imminent danger to them. In a decade as an employment lawyer, I never did a case involving this but I suspect it will come to the fore a lot over the coming months... Whether It will be found to be reasonable to believe covid is a “serious and imminent danger” I don’t know.

Morally, as long as the employer has done their best to make it safe and they aren’t vulnerable, I agree they should go back. Certainly shouldn’t still be furloughed.

I don’t know if I could be friends with people so blatantly work shy.

What makes them more important than the countless other people who have had to continue their work, in close contact with people, throughout all of this?

In both their jobs, it’s easy enough to either practice social distancing and/or increased hygiene practices. My nail technician wears masks anyway to stop her inhaling fumes etc.

I appreciate it's really difficult , but the employer doesn't really have much choice. Those businesses will be on their knees as it is, they can't pay people to stay at home once the furlough scheme stops. Not quite sure what your friends think their employers are supposed to do.

On a practical level you’d be a bit foolish to lose your job over this in the hope you could claim unfair dismissal - by the time the tribunal gets round to hearing your claim it’ll be ages, and I doubt there’ll be many other jobs going in the meantime.

"Whether It will be found to be reasonable to believe covid is a “serious and imminent danger” I don’t know."

I'm going to guess not, unless that person is immunosuppressed or something. But even then, unless they are literally isolating alone, then there's always a danger....