Council want to prosecute over rubbish

[Annieberrie]

Hi

I hope someone can help.

I recently moved house and had a lot of things I didnt want to take so used a removal service to take rubbish away. I found the service advertised on facebook marketplace and booked, after agreeing cost which was £150.

The rubbish was removed, and I was so pleased I gave a further £20 tip.

Last weekend received a letter from the council, stating I illegally dumped this and to send proof.

I sent the council an email, with conversation and pictures of the conversation, including agreeing cost and also a picture of the advertisement with contact details.

I have come home to find a letter asking me to pay £250 or the council will proceed with a prosecution. I called the officer who sent letter which went to answerphone. I received an email an hour ago from the officer stating as I could not provide evidence I failed in my duty of care. I replied with please check email that I sent to you (with date and time) with pictures attached of advertisement, and the business that took the rubbish and payment is actively advertising.

I do not know what to do, I cant afford fine, so will end up being prosecuted as the officer says I did not ask to see the business licence. I am terrified.

Does anyone have advice?

Oh my word, I never would have thought to check for a license either

I feel for you, OP.
I had no idea it was up to individual householders to "check their license" etc.
Can you name & shame on Facebook & Twitter? That would be my immediate satisfaction outlet.

Does the same rule apply if someone turns up to do electrics, plumbing, gas boiler or building work -- do homeowners always have to check the certifications of all tradespeople or be held liable by building control later? I want to know who among the Keyboard warriors always does those checks, each and every day someone turns up at your home to do any work. (After all the license could have been revoked in the 24 hours since you last checked)

Oh my word, I never would have thought to check for a license either

So what's the solution ? Change the basic precept of statute law - enshrined for over half a millennium - that ignorance of the law is no defence ?

A public education campaign ? That 50% of the public will ignore, and 50% refuse to believe ?

Or - as the system has tried to do - use a scale of punishments from the lower end for cases like the OPs, right up to the £50,000 (plus jail time) reserved for the repeat/deliberate offenders ?

I want to know who among the Keyboard warriors always does those checks, each and every day someone turns up at your home to do any work.

If you can't be bothered to check the credentials of people you engage, who else do you think will do it?? It's you who bears the consequences of engaging a rogue, so surely it's up to you to check them out. Have you ever heard of the concept of personal responsibility?

Every plumber, every builder, every electrician, every roof or window fitter... check their credentials each and every day they turn up to do some work, even if they were also checked site yesterday? That's a lot of work.

Does the same rule apply if someone turns up to do electrics, plumbing, gas boiler or building work -- do homeowners always have to check the certifications of all tradespeople or be held liable by building control later?

No - because the work itself has to be certified at the end of the process.

in fact it's the same principle for the OP. They hired someone to dispose of their waste and that someone should have provided them with the appropriate certificate to comply with the law. Same way if you have your gas done, you get a certificate saying it's been done to standard.

People can wriggle, writhe, and complain all they like. The law is the law, and we don't get to pick and choose the laws we like and the laws we don't when it comes to life. Or rather we can, but then we shouldn't be surprised when we end up in court.

Whilst there are a lot of stupid laws around (a situation that's not getting any better) most laws tend to come into being in response to real events and situations that real people experience. The UKs environmental protection regime is built around a history where without regulation rogue firms were dumping asbestos, chemical and biological waste wherever they could, with the inevitable effects on peoples lives, health and well being. So over 30 years ago, the debate was not "is this law too harsh ?" but more "are we sure this is going to be enough ?". And sadly, the intervening 30 years have replied loud and clear "not really". As some posters here have noted.

Also, for all the sympathy for the OP (and those parsnips will remain forever unbuttered) there's another thing to consider. And that's that in the intervening 30 years, there hasn't been a flood of stories like the OPs filling our newspapers. Not even the Express. Which suggests that overall, most people do manage to somehow or other dispose of their waste in a lawful manner. Many thousands of them. Maybe tens of thousands of them. So the question - in my best headmistress voice - is how come they were able to manage and the OP not ?

I've tried - gently and not so gently - to suggest that the easiest and safest way to deal with this sort of problem is to get Facebook to deal with the way it allows people to advertise. After all it's not just the rogue trader and council that will have made money our of the OPs distress. Somewhere Facebook quietly made a profit from allowing that rogue traders advert to appear on their platform. And if you can't trust and advert from a Man+Van outfit on Facebook, then how the hell can you be expected (or prepared) to trust political adverts and the like ?

Can you name & shame on Facebook & Twitter? That would be my immediate satisfaction outlet.

They won't give a shit. Illegal "waste removal" is the provenance of gangsters, in part because all you need to do it is a van and two brain cells to type a Facebook ad. They will simply change company name/numberplate and keep going.

They won't give a shit. Illegal "waste removal" is the provenance of gangsters, in part because all you need to do it is a van and two brain cells to type a Facebook ad.

Which is actually two more brain cells than it would take for Facebook to identify the ad for waste services and insert a pop up before you click it with a warning to check the advertiser has a waste carrier licence. Or is all that guff about how Facebook is using "AI" to help regulators just so much hot air ?

Mark Zuckerburg has become one of the worlds most wealthy men through Facebook, so it's not really too much to ask that Facebook earns its keep by not helping criminals and scamsters ? Although that would admittedly then stop a lot of politicians being able to pump their lies through it.

I'm not saying this is all Facebooks fault. But they are the only party in this deal that is coming out ahead.

Also if the council can track you down as the original owner of the rubbish surely they can track down the rogue trader who illegally disposed of it

This.

Also, it would help if councils actually opened the tips a bit longer and stopped putting barriers in the way of people using them. Hampshire is about to stop people using them unless you register your car reg with them (not sure what you do if you cycle with a small amount of rubbish).

Fly tipping is literally a rubbish thing to do but the comments on here are pretty harsh. The fault is with the person who tipped it, not the person who acted in good faith.

What about if they did have a license, who would be prosecuted then?

But Hampshire can do that because it's the district councils who have to deal with fly tipping.

So Hampshire saves money (or not, by buying an expensive ANPR system) by refusing to take waste, and then the local district council has to deal with the fly tipping (and fines people like the OP, caught up in it all).

Presumably if they had a licence they wouldn't have fly tipped it.

What about if they did have a license, who would be prosecuted then?

Why would they fly tip if they had a licence? Why would they risk a huge fine and loss of their licence?

Just like why would a GasSafe engineer botch a gas installation and risk losing his accreditation meaning losing his livelihood?

People who have worked hard to obtain an officially recognised accreditation won't risk their business to save a few quid unless they're really stupid.

Also, it would help if councils actually opened the tips a bit longer

While true, as someone pointed out upthread (it was me) that would go against the past 10 years of "austerity" where all public services have been repeated shrunk by x% every year. Even this year all government departments are being told to find 5% "savings" - and that will trickle down to local services.

and stopped putting barriers in the way of people using them.

Curious as to what "barriers" (unless you are being literal) you feel are being put in the way ?

Not sure why so many people seem to think environmental protection is something we can - as a people - let up on. Personally I think the UK is ridiculously lax as it is, and we need more - not less - protection.

buying an expensive ANPR system

If they paid more than £1,000 for it, they were done.

Does the same rule apply if someone turns up to do electrics, plumbing, gas boiler or building work

Well, yes. If I get someone round to work on my boiler, I do indeed make sure they're on the Gas Safe Register. If it's an unregistered trade or service, I get personal recommendations or references.

As for waste, I'm aware there are some kind of rules, even if not the exact forms and process, but because I don't know, I would have done a quick google to see what I needed to check.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm sure OP has learnt a harsh lesson.

Also, it would help if councils actually opened the tips a bit longer

I must be lucky - my local tip is open 8-6 (8-8 in summer), 7 days a week. I think it closes Christmas Day.

They have started charging for some types of waste, which is annoying but:

(A) it is still cheaper than paying commercial waste carriers
(B) those charges don't somehow force people to fly tip. This kind of "they made me do it" attitude is pathetic.

Curious as to what "barriers" (unless you are being literal) you feel are being put in the way?

How about jobsworth tip staff not letting you put a handful of small kitchen wall tiles in the skip? I had 5 or 6 in the back of my shed which I took. Tip staff wouldn't let me and told me to go online to get a permit. I applied, but nothing ever arrived. So I just put them in the wheelie bin with non recyclables for the bin men to take. That's a prime example of a barrier. If they'd let me, I'd have put them in the right skip for recycling (hardcore), but as they didn't and put obstacles in the way (i.e. a non working permit system), they ended up in landfill!

How about jobsworth tip staff not letting you put a handful of small kitchen wall tiles in the skip?

But as you then say ..

Tip staff wouldn't let me and told me to go online to get a permit.

So when ...

I applied, but nothing ever arrived.

Why did you not chase the permit up, instead of blaming the tip staff for doing their job ?

I'm not saying you would say this yourself, but there are those people that would complain about police being "jobsworths" for stopping people for going 1mph over the speed limit.

sorry this happened to you OP. I wouldn't have known to ask for a licence either and I have a bunch of junk I need to get rid of so this thread is very helpful. thank you.

I wonder if as well as paying the fine you can track down the bastards who did this and take them to the small claims court to get a refund of what you paid them plus a contribution to your fine.

I wonder if as well as paying the fine you can track down the bastards who did this and take them to the small claims court to get a refund of what you paid them plus a contribution to your fine.

You could. However - as with any civil action - the main hurdles will always be (a) actually getting the right person(s) served, and (b) even if you get judgement, actually getting the money.

That's before you consider that even if the OP could trace the people, the council might want to step in and prosecute them further, for the actual flytipping.

Incidentally in that event, the OP would be entitled to their entire fine being repaid in order to put them back in the position they were before they paid the firm.

I am shocked at the suggestion you are a keyboard warrior because you know to check that the trades you hire are licensed. Of course you check that your gas engineer, electrician etc are licensed. It’s step 1. Ignorance is not something to be proud of.

I haven't read the whole thread but the best thing the OP is contact the Council and agree a payment schedule and stick to it.

I do sympathise. I did know about checking for a waste licence but I can see how it would be easy to not realise.

To the person asking about barriers, over the past couple of years my local tip has gone from opening six days a week and taking pretty much anything to opening limited hours three days a week and only taking certain recyclables. The opening hours and what they take changes regularly - they wouldn't take Wood, then they would, then they were open on a Monday, then they weren't. It's a pretty clear ploy by the council to save money by showing that usage has fallen and then reducing the number of tips, but all it is actually doing locally is increasing the amount of fly tipping.