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Original poster

Council want to prosecute over rubbish

99 replies

Annieberrie · 06/03/2020 17:11

I hope someone can help.

I recently moved house and had a lot of things I didnt want to take so used a removal service to take rubbish away. I found the service advertised on facebook marketplace and booked, after agreeing cost which was £150.

The rubbish was removed, and I was so pleased I gave a further £20 tip.

Last weekend received a letter from the council, stating I illegally dumped this and to send proof.

I sent the council an email, with conversation and pictures of the conversation, including agreeing cost and also a picture of the advertisement with contact details.

I have come home to find a letter asking me to pay £250 or the council will proceed with a prosecution. I called the officer who sent letter which went to answerphone. I received an email an hour ago from the officer stating as I could not provide evidence I failed in my duty of care. I replied with please check email that I sent to you (with date and time) with pictures attached of advertisement, and the business that took the rubbish and payment is actively advertising.

I do not know what to do, I cant afford fine, so will end up being prosecuted as the officer says I did not ask to see the business licence. I am terrified.

Does anyone have advice?

OP posts:

SoupDragon · 06/03/2020 18:45

Even though they must have some idea who it was since they managed to link the rubbish to the OP.

I assume the fly tippers didn't leave their own personal data in the rubbish. That's how they have tracked the OP.

ColaFreezePop · 06/03/2020 18:46

Unfortunately OP you have been done - the guys did it too cheaply as if they were licensed prices would start from about £100.

Pay the fine and chalk it up to experience.

Nomorepies · 06/03/2020 18:47

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on the poster's request.

Kpo58 · 06/03/2020 19:01

I don't understand why the council doesn't prosecute/shut down unlicenced waste disposal companies regardless if they have fly tipped or not. Plenty of other businesses need appropriate licences to operate and without them they are fined.

LizB62A · 06/03/2020 19:06

Report them to Trading Standards and the police.
But, you're still liable

Gyre · 06/03/2020 19:10

I had no idea waste carriers should be licensed. How is it right that you can get into trouble for not checking something if you didn't know it existed?
I would go to court and argue it out:

You can prove you hired named individuals who are still advertising this service, and are therefore traceable. I would ask the council if they could prove you knew about the licence issue and what efforts they had made to publicize this to you, and why, once you'd told them with evidence who the dumpers were, they were still pursuing you?

I feel pretty sure a magistrate would not be delighted with the council's behaviour under these circs.

feesh · 06/03/2020 19:23

Gyre, the law is crystal clear. The legislation has been in place since 1990 and ALL councils will have info on their websites setting out how to legally dispose of household waste. www.environmentlaw.org.uk/rte.asp?id=83

Weregoingonanadventure · 06/03/2020 19:28

@Gyre
Not helpful. If she goes to court because of what you've said, she will be hit with an even bigger fine. This has been done and done again. The result is the same.

It is the owner of the rubbish who is responsible. If you hire someone to dump your rubbish then you need to make sure they are a licensed and reputable firm. If they flytip then it's on you. Telling the OP to go to court and argue because you just disagree with the law is not helpful. It will get her in more trouble.

Redkatagain · 06/03/2020 19:30

I would also suggest contacting your local councillor as well. They may be able to work with the council to help you come to an arrangement to pay over time, or to potentially reduce the fine in exchange for cooperation to catch the unlicensed carrier.

katmarie · 06/03/2020 19:37

Gyre, ignorance is no defence in law. I work in waste disposal and pp are right that the waste remains the responsibility of the producer until it is properly disposed of. A waste company with a proper carriers licence would not have been that much more expensive, especially with the tip the op threw in, and would have documented the transfer of the waste to them with a waste transfer note, which I suspect is what the council are looking for as evidence that this is not the op's fault. As far as the council is concerned the op chose to use an illegal method to get rid of her waste, and the fly tipping was the result. They dont know or care whether the op knew they were doing something wrong, because as I said, ignorance is no defence in law.

user1497207191 · 06/03/2020 19:58

I don't understand why the council doesn't prosecute/shut down unlicenced waste disposal companies regardless if they have fly tipped or not.

Perhaps it's a small section of society that seem to get away with all kinds of law breaking because the authorities are afraid of them. Far easier for the council to go after the homeowner who is more likely to pay the fine, rather than risk getting their knee caps broken by the unlicensed firms!

user1497207191 · 06/03/2020 20:00

How is it right that you can get into trouble for not checking something if you didn't know it existed?

Ignorance of the law is no excuse - as has been confirmed in huge numbers of court cases over many years.

SorryDidISayThatOutLoud · 06/03/2020 20:06

Have you checked with the company to see if they have a license? Given that they are still advertising - is it possible they have one under another name? Just a shot in the dark really.

user1497207191 · 06/03/2020 20:10

Have you checked with the company to see if they have a license? Given that they are still advertising - is it possible they have one under another name?

If they had a licence, they wouldn't risk losing it by fly-tipping.

Mlou32 · 06/03/2020 20:19

I don't have any advice for you but just wanted to say don't feel too bad at not checking for a licence as I wouldn't have thought to ask for one either. I just assumed you (or a waste removal company) paid a set fee there and then to the dump when they disposed of waste.

TrainspottingWelsh · 06/03/2020 21:48

It's a harsh lesson, but ignorance is no defence. It's a huge problem, and the only effective way to stop it is to stop demand.

Fwiw it cost a close friend thousands in vet bills, and more importantly one of her horses lives after someone fly tipped into her field late one night. Not to mention it costs lots of us to move other people's fly tipped rubbish. So I really struggle to sympathise with ignorance as a defence from those contributing to the problem.

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 06/03/2020 21:59

I wouldn’t have thought to check them out either op. I can just picture the oh so perfect. I’m alright Jack brigade on her at times Sipping their Chardonnay.

AdobeWanKenobi · 06/03/2020 23:30

Unfortunately OP you have been done - the guys did it too cheaply as if they were licensed prices would start from about £100

@colafreezepop
From the OP......

agreeing cost which was £150

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 07/03/2020 00:11

How much stuff was there? Assuming you don't have a (suitable) vehicle yourself, wouldn't it be much easier and cheaper to give a friend or family member with a large car or domestic-qualifying trailer £25 (even £50) to take it to the dump for you? You could always line the car with black bags or old sheets.

If you don't know anybody, you could even advertise on FB for somebody with a large-but-still-qualifying-as non-commercial vehicle (van-based minibuses with windows are ideal) to go with you to the tip with all your rubbish, then it would all be above board.

It's always going to be cheaper if you can keep domestic waste as domestic waste, rather than letting it become commercial waste by paying a company to get rid of it for you. Even if you pay a genuine licensed firm who will take it to an official site and pay for doing so, it's going to really bump up the costs (albeit without the legal action and threatening letters). Much better to quite legitimately take it to your local household waste tip - it's just a case of finding somebody with a suitable vehicle and making sure you go there with them.

LadyMarathonRunner · 07/03/2020 00:29

I see Mumsnet keyboard warriors raging, maybe you all should calm down dears?

Sadly OP you are very much liable, and it's a hard lesson to learn, but chalk it up to the experience that is life itself. Pay the fine, accept your liability, and move on with love in your heart and a knowledge that you are imperfect like the rest of us.

Well except the Mumsnet keyboard warrior brigade who all shit rose petals but never in anybody else's toilet...

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 07/03/2020 10:01

I can just picture the oh so perfect. I’m alright Jack brigade on her at times Sipping their Chardonnay

Why so much aggression?

Jimdandy · 07/03/2020 10:20

This is my precious line of work and you are at fault for not using a licensed waste carrier. I would pay the fixed penalty notice offered or you risk going to court and receiving a much bigger fine and costs.

The £80 referred to is a littering fixed penalty notice more than likely. They brought in the £250 fixed penalty for more serious offences but to still avoid prosecutions where necessary

TrainspottingWelsh · 07/03/2020 22:05

Exactly awelook the alright Jack brigade, trying to minimise the problem of fly tipping because they aren't the victims of it.

LadyMarathon do feel free to share your full address. As you obviously wouldn't mind having other people's shit dumped on your property I'll drive the next load some fucker dumps round here over to you. You can then google some graphic images of maimed animals so you can experience the full effect.

chomalungma · 07/03/2020 22:14

I feel for you.
Surely the police / council could set up 'stings' to track such fly tippers who advertise on places like Facebook and then massively fine them.

I bet many people don't know that the company should be registered.

ProfessorSlocombe · 08/03/2020 13:59

Surely the police / council could set up 'stings' to track such fly tippers who advertise on places like Facebook and then massively fine them.

There are lots of things the "police could do". Indeed, there are a lot of things the police are doing. Visiting people who might be thinking of saying something offensive on Twitter for a start.

However, in this case, the chain of causation - and therefore liability - is actually clear and logical. As subjects, we all have a duty to dispose of waste in a safe, and lawful manner. That duty exists at all times - there's no time off from it. Whether it's throwing a wrapper in a bin, or putting our own bins out for collection by the (licenced carrier) council.

Disposing of waste in any other way is unlawful if not illegal. And if you haven't a licence, then the person you give the waste to must have.

Not trying to pick on the OP - again, still no parsnips are getting buttered - but that's how we have built our society.

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