Talk me through this - male on placement with brownies

[nevernotstruggling]

The dds have been to the same brownie unit for around 4 years (dd1 waiting to move up to guides). I know the leaders quite well and there has been one staff changeover in that time. The communication with parents has been excellent. I have felt safe letting the dds go on sleepovers knowing that I know all the adults involved. It's actually been brilliant in terms of safeguarding. No surprises or anything parents haven't been informed of. The dds love it. Dd2 is thriving there because it's a small closed group where she feels safe and familiar.

I dropped the dds off this week and a man came up to dd1 touches her shoulder and said 'you're it' I said to brown owl - who is that?? She replied oh it's Dave (not his name obvs). Me - who is Dave??? BO - he's on work placement (something about youth work) . Me - Er is he DBS checked?? BO- yes. Me- Brownies is a girls group!! BO - we have dads helping! No they don't. Not once the whole time we have attended.

Apparently Dave will be there for 4 weeks.

My reaction has been negative. I'm quite annoyed there was no warning of Dave jointing the unit. There have never been 'work placements' before. I think it was be something to do with the church though.

I think parents should have been told. They use a private Facebook group to keep in touch with parents and this works really well so I'm a bit baffled by the surprise!

I don't see an issue at all and think your whole thread is extremely odd

Well, that's great for you, but do you think it's possible that some girls go to brownies to enjoy the single-sex environment?

Is that ok with you?

How about full chromosome based separation on all levels?
Of course including within the family home because - male relatives?

That would solve your problems.

But only men can rape? Again. It is a fact.

I don’t understand the comments about Brownies being girls only. How is it ok for boys to be beavers, cubs or scouts if that is the argument? I have two daughters, one was a beaver, cub and scout, the other is a brownie. As that’s what suited them. It can’t only work one way.

Why can’t it “only work one way”?

@AsAnActualWoman would you mind dm-ing me please

For clarity I don't assume Dave is a risk.

OK.

I'm just a bit shocked parents weren't told.

If you don't think he's a risk then why should parents be told?

But only men can rape? Again. It is a fact

In law yes. But surely.. surely you bloody well see that this is a stupid law. Physiological reactions can happen to both sexes but that does not mean a woman cannot physically rape a man. Legally she cant. Physically she can. And you're a bloody awful person for thinking that men physically (fuck legally) but physically cannot be raped by a woman.

Well. To reassure you (not).. DBS would only show up current convictions so unless you're convinced he touched your daughter inappropriately (playing a game) and has a stash of child porn all because you weren't told about him.. (and should then report your anger to HQ)), then lay off the bloke.

Dads. Men. Males. Have all volunteered at brownies/GG before. It's not a first judging by the comments

Really?

I just hope you don’t have a son OP and he doesn’t have the same struggles as poor Dave here

Don't worry, poor Dave will never know, no one will say it to his face.

But the law makes the distinction for a very good reason — there is a specific word, ie rape, used for non—consensual penetration of a female by a male, with a penis, because of the potential consequences of this, namely pregnancy. Other acts are called different things. This is a very specific crime that only bio females can be the victims of.

I cannot believe we even have to have this discussion.

Don't worry, poor Dave will never know, no one will say it to his face.

Imagine.
Sorry Dave. I know you're volunteering to become qualified and I know you are DBS checked and I know you would rather be anywhere else in the world on X nights..
But I wasnt told you would be volunteering.
I'm not comfortable. I don't know why a male would be around young girls for any innocent reason.
Please find another group.
Thanks.

What do what you want to be told?

This is Dave, he’s had a DBS check, he’s clear not sure about his computer though, might have pictures on it, might like minors, not sure didn’t say on his application. If he starts leering at your child let us know and we’ll have a word

"Girlguiding provides girls with a safe space outside of school where they can have fun, learn new skills and explore issues without embarrassment or fear of repercussions. Girlguiding provides resources and a space where girls can reflect on the complexities of relationships – through resources such as the peer education resource, Healthy Relationships."

From:
www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/research-and-campaigns/sexual-harassment-in-schools-inquiry---girlguiding-response-may2016.pdf

^^ was written in 2016 based on 2015 survey results.

Shortly after that fabulous article, GGUK delivered a report stating their concerns about their declining numbers.

Shortly after that, they opened up Girl Guiding to include boys and men.

Why can't girls and women JUST have a FEW spaces where men aren't allowed? Why are some women so opposed to this?

And to those Mums who are eye-rolling because they have boys, that's precisely it - you've nothing to worry about, you have boys.

How is it ok for boys to be beavers, cubs or scouts if that is the argument?

Because they voted for it. Brownies haven't.

onthehamster it’s not my fault that nobody bothered to keep it boys only. Maybe more bothered parents should have stood up. Maybe the didn’t think girls posed a risk?...

@fascinated

Could you please enlighten me as to what this would be called then.

Male is stripped naked. Too drunk to consent. Gets an erection upon seeing a naked girl (physiological reaction). Said girl inserts erection into her, male is too drunk to stop. Girl holds man down or has man tied up. Man says no. Does not want it to continue.

No ejaculation (as this is not specified in the term rape).

Or scenario 2. Woman drugs man. Uses sexual object on him anally without consent.

Legally. Neither of these two are rape.
But tell me what else would they be called. I'm genuinely curious.

@TryingToBeBold

Instead of "I wasn't' told" - I'd say "I wasn't asked".

We should be raising our girls to set boundaries, and raise our boys to always request consent.

Scout movement is paranoid about safeguarding, you only have to read their public viewable Facebook page to read all the leaders on there discussing your sort of issue and whinging about the associated paperwork for it. They don’t hold back, and will discuss past child abuse cases and everything. So you can bet your group has liability’d the heck out of your Dave!

It’s a bit of a peeve I suppose considering it’s one of the last few girl-one spaces existing though.

I was a parent volunteer at junior school once. I wasn’t DBS checked for it. I was sat a table with about 8 other Year 5s, in the dining room but with no other teachers present, and I had kids sitting either side of me, literally as close as your own kids would sit next to you. Teachers knew me of course but only through parents evening or occasionally speaking to me about my kids and so on.

Dad volunteers are rare, but it happens I guess.

If you’re worried:

volunteer to help out during his placement and see how they check out your liability or
keep your kid out of the group for Dave’s duration.
Consider that the female leaders will probably have one beady eye on him anyway for the same reasons you’re worried about, because that’s a mother’s natural instinct.

That Soham bloke who was a school caretaker was DBS checked equivalent too but we all know what he went on to do.

@SafeguardingAndSocialWork

Brownies (Owls / Leaders) are women and would have implemented this. So rather than boys requesting consent.. if the OP was "asked".. the boys requesting consent would not apply. This would be female to female requesting consent.

Should I be telling my DS that he shouldn't be a Young Leader with Beavers as according to some PP it is weird and wrong that males want to work with children?

Sexual assault by penetration.

I think that the breakdown by sex of the figures for that offence are similarly skewed about towards male perpetrators.

Girlguiding is for girls (or those who identify as girls ). One of its stated aims is that girls see women in leadership positions and have female role models.

So although guiding has always had Male helpers, I'd also be cautious, because so often Male volunteers take charge when the whole ethos of the organisation is that its girl centred and woman led.

When I was leader, I would have emailed parents in advance to let them know there was a new volunteer, regardless of sex. It's just polite! The only exception would have been when arranging very short notice cover.

Every thread on Guides has an element of how unfair it is that boys can't join guides but girls can join scouts. The two are COMPLETELY SEPARATE organisations and set their own rules. Scouts admitting girls was less about being progressive and more about practicalities. Scouts had a membership crisis and needed more adult leaders. It's worked out well and there's no doubt some girls get far more out of scouts than guides.

Many parents and girls chose Girlguiding because it is single sex (well, it isn't anymore but pretends to be), including the adult leaders. That's a perfectly valid choice and there are plenty of mixed sex options for those who prefer co-Ed.

Scenario 1 — not sure, would need to think about that. Sexual assault, I think.