Talk me through this - male on placement with brownies

[nevernotstruggling]

The dds have been to the same brownie unit for around 4 years (dd1 waiting to move up to guides). I know the leaders quite well and there has been one staff changeover in that time. The communication with parents has been excellent. I have felt safe letting the dds go on sleepovers knowing that I know all the adults involved. It's actually been brilliant in terms of safeguarding. No surprises or anything parents haven't been informed of. The dds love it. Dd2 is thriving there because it's a small closed group where she feels safe and familiar.

I dropped the dds off this week and a man came up to dd1 touches her shoulder and said 'you're it' I said to brown owl - who is that?? She replied oh it's Dave (not his name obvs). Me - who is Dave??? BO - he's on work placement (something about youth work) . Me - Er is he DBS checked?? BO- yes. Me- Brownies is a girls group!! BO - we have dads helping! No they don't. Not once the whole time we have attended.

Apparently Dave will be there for 4 weeks.

My reaction has been negative. I'm quite annoyed there was no warning of Dave jointing the unit. There have never been 'work placements' before. I think it was be something to do with the church though.

I think parents should have been told. They use a private Facebook group to keep in touch with parents and this works really well so I'm a bit baffled by the surprise!

No you don’t @gamerwidow. Men are not allowed to be leaders within girlguiding. They can be unit helpers, but they can’t do the leadership qualification. Unless they identify as female.

I'm happy to accept this as true but the men I'm talking about wear the same uniform as Brown Owl and turn up every week to help. I've mistakenly thought the helpers in uniform who are permanent are 'leaders' happy to be corrected but it doesn't change the fact they are a permanent and official part of the group which was my main point rather than the specific qualifications they have and which the lay person will not care about.

@fascinated

I guess in that case, i feel the law and definition should be updated.
As sexual assault by penetration would.. go hand in hand with the definition of rape. So why would a woman be raped rather than sexually assaulted by penetration. I genuinely feel that needs updating.

Thank you for explaining.. I know things arent black and white but.. it's essentially still rape. Just seemingly another word for it.

'The radical changes made to the Girl Guides’ single-sex policy in January apply to adults, and declare that it would be against the law for guide leaders to tell parents that their daughters are being supervised on trips by transgender people.

In addition, the guidance states that families should not be told if a “transgender” child joins their group, adding that it is not “best practice” for parents to know if their daughters are sharing facilities with males who “identify” as female while on trips away.'

morningmail.org/girlguiding-uk-allows-transgender-guides-share-showers-tents/

Girl Guiding has ZILCH safe-guarding measures in place so you are so very right @nevernotstruggling to be questioning this.

@SafeguardingAndSocialWork what does this have to do with Dave, he isn't identifying as a woman. If Dave went on an over night trip they would have to tell the parents in the highly unlikely event he was sharing space with the girls. This isn't a trans issue.

Should we not be teaching our children the pants rules, good touches and bad, having healthy relationships with both genders and so on. I’m not denying that some truly horrific things have happened. This man or any other volunteer won’t be left with children male or female unsupervised. Surely men shouldn’t people to be feared?

Men have been able to hold roles such as unit helper in Girl Guiding for a long time. Generally they tend to have a link to the leaders. They can also have specialist roles such as activities advisers which can be niche to fill with people of appropriate excperience. Our county watersports adviser has a similar role for Girl Guiding and Scouting, admittedly that's been the only male participant I've met on training days.

The other exception for males is leaders' children. I happened to have sons after becoming a Leader and Girl Guiding recognises that many leaders are in my position where it would not be possible to continue Guiding if their children of either sex could not accompany them. They have to abide by appropriate age ratios and accomodation/ toilet facilities on residentials. The decision by Girl Guiding to be single gender to members rather than single sex is frustrating as the words "I feel that I am female" is all that is needed to change the protocals followed by anatomical males. It also discriminates against biological girls who are questioning if they are male.

Aside from controversy over gender/ sex, Girl Guiding has clear policies on safeguarding, volunteering and training. There are clear support systems in place to ensure that volunteers of either sex are apropriately placed and the way they behave. All volunteers have to abide by policies to create a safe space regardless of their sex.

TryingToBeBold that has to be the most "what about the men" post I've ever seen. We have a real problem with men raping women (in general, nor in guiding) and you're coming up with ways to turn men into victims.

All the guides should just be nice. And know their place. And keep their feelings to themselves. Shut up and put up.

Talk you through it, OP? Ok, there's a new volunteer in your daughter's well safeguarded group who has been dbs checked and deemed suitable. He'll be there for 4 weeks. Your options? Grin and bear it; complain; leave the group (for 4 weeks, or permanently)

Aside from the misandry on this thread, I'm fascinated by the fact that several posters seem to think that this guy wouldn't be capable of abuse if he was father to one of the girls.

@StealthPolarBear I assure you that was far from my intention. I was only questioning something I had read previously in the thread. A genuine question and genuine query about a comment I wanted to learn more about.
Absolutely nothing to do with turning men into victims.

OK fair enough, I must have missed the point you were responding to. Apologies.

Surely men shouldn’t people to be feared?

Are you serious?

Even if its not about fear it could just be about single sex spaces for girls. Which let's face it are gone now so they may as well get used to it young.

keep your kid out of the group for Dave’s duration

Why should she? OP's DD is a member of the Brownie pack. Why should she stay away just so Dave can do his 4 week placement?

I became a Brownie leader in 1990 and even then men were still able to become unit helpers. This is not remotely a new thing and nothing to do with men identifying as women.. Even if your unit didn't have a male unit helper, a man might be brought in as a specialist to run an activity (e.g. first aid, climbing ...). This was also fine.

You can't send your daughter to Brownies with the expectation that she will never come into contact with a man there. I'm sorry if you had that expectation and are now disappointed.

I should as an aside point out that many Brownie packs could not run without the involvement of men - particularly long suffering leaders' husbands, who are often pulled in at the last minute to make up ratios, because none of the parents can be bothered to volunteer.

If it's a strictly girl-only environment, then adult women are no longer girls and thus can't be there either. If Brownies is only for girls aged 7-10, then an adult woman wouldn't qualify to join, any more than a boy or man would. Except, they aren't joining - they're enabling in the capacity of kind, responsible, DBS-checked adults - just like Dave.

Comparisons with men-only clubs are silly, because men (same as women at places like the WI) don't need adult supervision at their clubs - and they likely have female staff serving them anyway.

Surely the idea of girl-only is for those being served by and benefiting from the club (so no boys playing with them and taking over or embarrassing them) - not those doing the serving. I'm sure the adult female leaders aren't desperate to run under parachutes, squeal whilst playing energetic games and make glittery unicorn crafts either.

As for ‘warning’ parents about a man helping out, you know exactly what that’s going to lead to. People will come to their own conclusions and the fact that they had to be ‘warned’ will already condemn him as a pervert in their eyes.

There are so many men out there (many of them fathers) who couldn't care less about nurturing and serving children and I think it's so sad that, when they do (like Dave), some women are outraged, assume they're up to no good and want them banished.

I think that, reading a lot of the comments here, there are a lot of women who don’t want men to be a proper part of society. Just because most violence and child abuse is perpetrated by men does not mean that most men are violent and/or child abusers. What’s the solution, then? Send all the men to live on a massive island and just send a courier when society needs some sperm – and then, the children that ‘sadly’ turn out to be boys get sent there as well at 18?

Just remember, those of you who refuse to let you go out for an evening with friends because your husbands don’t want to look after their own children: he isn’t doing it because he’s lazy, selfish or controlling at all – he’s doing it to prove to you that he wants them to be kept safe, and that he, as a possessor of XY chromosomes, through no fault of his own is simply not capable of that.

From my personal experience as a child I think any boy/man actively seeking out a variety of ways to be with children is dodgy as fuck. I have a Dad, husband, male friends, son. I don't hate men at all, just noticed that the decent ones seem to instinctively know to avoid putting others in uncomfortable situations.

I presume your husband didn’t have any say in your having a child together, then? That’s a guaranteed way to get to spend time with children – MUST be a pervert, 100%. If he wasn’t he never would have put you in that dangerous position of risk

Enforcing a blanket ban on males would keep girls safer but too often it seems people want to prioritise male feelings over safety. I would question why a young man wants to work with young girls.

I feel really sorry for Dave right now. He’s voluntarily giving up his own time in support of helping children to have fun and develop their interests in a safe environment and so many people are assuming that he’s only there to abuse them and that we shouldn’t allow him to do that, just to spare his feelings.

I can only assume that the female volunteers must be perverts too, deviously putting themselves where they can get at children. If that’s not the case, then the only reason I can think is that supervising and helping children is fine for a woman but nowhere near important enough to warrant a man’s precious time or skills

Aside from the misandry on this thread

Yep because women who object to a male in a girls only organisation have a "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e. the male sex)" They couldn't possibly be trying to protect female only spaces for young girls to enjoy.

The imbalance in risk profiles is startling, indeed. And I think, ultimately, that this will present an issue in terms of equality vis a vis caring roles unless males somehow suddenly stop committing sexual abuse. The very few females that have been convicted of sexual crimes are the exception that proves the rule, and many if not most were found to be acting in concert with a male, or even a victim themselves coerced into abusing children.

Facts are facts. Ignoring reality tends to cause problems for humans in the long run.

This reminds me of Michael O’Leary’s recent comments about Muslims travelling on planes.

Surely any genuine peace-loving Muslim would make sure they didn’t put themselves in a position of travelling on a plane with non-Muslims, wouldn’t they? If they have no alternative but to travel, maybe we could tie them to their plane seat with strong rope for the whole journey, as statistically….Muslims….terrorists….y’know....FACT. Definitely don't let them talk to any non-Muslims on this packed flight. Most of them probably only became Muslims in the first place to train as terrorists etc. etc.

Dave might not even have chosen to work with the Brownies.

If he's a church youth worker, which is what the OP suggests, he's probably just doing a few weeks working with every youth group associated with the church to get to know them. Perhaps whether he likes it or not (if his main focus is going to be working with teens and young adults, for example).

Why can’t Dave just be a guy who wants to do something valuable with his time, give back to his community, enhance his career prospects or share his knowledge?

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Yes because DH caring for his own child is exactly the same as him volunteering for every role under the sun that gets him near as many children as possible.

You know the type of man I am talking about. Those ones, dodgy as fuck.

There is a reason why most mothers get that instinctive hackles rising when a man who isn't your family is near your child. Sick of women being told to ignore their instincts for the sake of mens feelings.

And before you start, yes most abuse happens in the home and with people you know, I'd like to think most mothers would be watchful of that too.

Everyone feels so sorry for Dave, poor, poor Dave. Seems no one has given a thought to the reason the ops dd might rather a female only space, or why the OP might rather her dd have a female only space.

I think that, reading a lot of the comments here, there are a lot of women who don’t want men to be a proper part of society

It's not about men not being a part of society, it's about reserving some spaces just for females.

Men don't need access to every space women occupy in order to be a proper part of society. You make it sound like men having to respect women's boundaries is somehow curtailing their 'right' to do whatever the hell they want.

Hamster wheel why can't the ops dd just be a girl who really values the female-only space?