Talk me through this - male on placement with brownies

[nevernotstruggling]

The dds have been to the same brownie unit for around 4 years (dd1 waiting to move up to guides). I know the leaders quite well and there has been one staff changeover in that time. The communication with parents has been excellent. I have felt safe letting the dds go on sleepovers knowing that I know all the adults involved. It's actually been brilliant in terms of safeguarding. No surprises or anything parents haven't been informed of. The dds love it. Dd2 is thriving there because it's a small closed group where she feels safe and familiar.

I dropped the dds off this week and a man came up to dd1 touches her shoulder and said 'you're it' I said to brown owl - who is that?? She replied oh it's Dave (not his name obvs). Me - who is Dave??? BO - he's on work placement (something about youth work) . Me - Er is he DBS checked?? BO- yes. Me- Brownies is a girls group!! BO - we have dads helping! No they don't. Not once the whole time we have attended.

Apparently Dave will be there for 4 weeks.

My reaction has been negative. I'm quite annoyed there was no warning of Dave jointing the unit. There have never been 'work placements' before. I think it was be something to do with the church though.

I think parents should have been told. They use a private Facebook group to keep in touch with parents and this works really well so I'm a bit baffled by the surprise!

Falsely accusing somebody like that would have consequences. I seriously hope the op would have a little more to go on than he it touched her dd on her shoulder in a crowded hall next to the group leader. If not and she casts assertions she may well find herself in hot water instead of the volunteer.

Asking if a new volunteer is dbs checked IS NOT accusing anyone of anything and I hope anyone would feel free to ask that of anyone me they left their child with.

I’m not sure I would want to encourage more men to act as leaders/supervisors in brownies, but if I did it wouldn’t be by pressuring parents to ignore their concerns and shut up.

But they aren't leaders as has been explained. They are there as helpers though, in some packs, because they are desperate for volunteers and often require parents to help out via a rota, or close down. In some cases it's dad who helps out rather than mum, or as here, a volunteer from elsewhere. If there aren't enough women volunteering what's your solution?

She was told yes after rudely asking. The assumption that BO didn’t bother with a crucial safe guarding procedure for all adults men and women is quite rude.. That is where the matter should end. But no she wants to go to GGHQ and whio up a storm on MN.

Asking if a new volunteer is dbs checked IS NOT accusing anyone of anything and I hope anyone would feel free to ask that of anyone me they left their child with.

As long as they ask the question to every new volunteer, and not just the male ones.

But what about the comments on the thread along the lines of "he is just weird wanting to help out with brownies"? Or the op demanding that the pack be notified in advance if a male volunteer was helping out?

She asked and he had a dsb check and she still wrote this post so that clearly wasnt the issue. Its the fact he is male its pretty obvious and also wrong! The fact that a female volunteer being there wouldnt even consider a concern is what is being called out and people should be called out

From page 5

5zeds

It’s really positive for girls to interact/work in female only spaces it fosters lots of positive things. I think if they have to include adult males because otherwise they’d close it undesirable but unavoidable. If it’s a choice I think it’s a shame.

5zeds

How very magnanimous of you - I'll tolerate a male volunteering if that saves the group from closing down but otherwise I'll be quite happy to join in with the bad mouthing of said male volunteer.

Why should he stay where he isn't wanted? Why should any men give up their time to benefit children knowing that this is how some people view them - with suspicion and distrust?

It’s really positive for girls to interact/work in female only spaces it fosters lots of positive things

That's not what the OP was about though - it was being insinuated he was dodgy just because he's male (he touched her shoulder!) (to include her in a game, to start a game, to make her feel included as new, maybe?
That parents should be told if there's a male helper (why? If they're all checked there's no problem. They being all helpers for clarity)

I’m with you OP my natural reaction would be negative. It’s a girls group for girls that I would expect to be run by women. Yes I would have expected to be told that a male helper would be joining the group. Given how shockingly awful most people know safeguarding is for guides I’d be watching very closely for anything unusual in my brownie groups too.

Given how shockingly awful most people know safeguarding is for guides I’d be watching very closely for anything unusual in my brownie groups too

It doesn't sound like they are slack with safeguarding though.
They have ensured that all helpers are DBS checked by the sounds of it.
So how exactly is it a safeguarding risk to merely be around a man?

Sausage — I don’t appreciate the implication that what I am saying is racist. That’s a disgraceful accusation. We have a DBS System for a reason, and OP is entitled to ask if it is being used.

Comparing black people and white people to men and women is just gobsmacking. Wtf? You do understand that both black and white women are just women, right?

To be crystal clear, I am NOT accusing anybody on here of being racist. I was drawing an ANALOGY between the thankfully-no-longer-prevailing attitude of recent decades towards non-white people and those current ones demonstrated on this thread towards men.

Whether you're drawing an arbitrary line based on sex, race, sexual orientation, disability or whatever, prejudice is prejudice - and prejudice is not a positive trait in anybody.

Returning to my earlier illustration, in the presence of any uncaged lion, you would be very wise to assume that it might hurt or kill you, because that is demonstrated universally in their very nature as a species.

The same is simply not true of men in general. If you're going to start from the basis of extreme suspicion and assumed intentions of abuse, based on the fact that a tiny minority of men are abusers (as is true of women) and sweep aside the vast, vast majority that aren't as somehow statistically insignificant, you're demonstrating that you are a prejudiced person, without any reasonable justification - once that is established, the matter of which particular prejudice(s) you do or don't choose to subscribe to is academic really.

She said if he hadn’t touched her dd on her shoulder there would be no thread.

I have teenage boys doing the volunteering route for DofE, it goes up to quite a high age. The fact they could get accused of something quite nasty simply by playing it is a huge worry. That said if there were any false allegations and a witch hunt I’d be making damn sure those accusing would have the full force of the law as regards slander.

Whether you're drawing an arbitrary line based on sex, race, sexual orientation, disability or whatever, prejudice is prejudice - and prejudice is not a positive trait in anybody

This

@C00kiesandCr3am

She was told yes after rudely asking

Were you there witnessing this?

I'm/any parent is entitled to ask about DBS checks. In any context. Any time.

Of course you're entitled to ask if they have a DBS policy, although I'd think it a rather facile question for any well-known and long-established children's groups - akin to asking a lorry driver employed full-time by Asda if s/he has an HGV driving licence.

It's just very strange - and of course prejudiced - if you only ask it of one person based on one simple basic individual charateristic, be it their sex, race, height or whatever, when you don't ask it of the others who happen not to share that same basic characteristic; and thus assume them safe by default because of their different basic characteristic.

If OP had come on here and, instead of a man, it had been a lesbian helper (or even just one who supposedly 'looks like one') - had mentioned that she was concerned not to have been warned and had demanded to know if she alone had been DBS-checked - because "ooh, lesbians are attracted to females so there's a very good chance she'll fancy the girls and try to groom them and that's likely exactly why she's volunteered, so as to gain access to new victims" - not one single person on here would have called her anything apart from crazy and prejudiced.

Why should any men give up their time to benefit children knowing that this is how some people view them - with suspicion and distrust? No idea, but since I’ve specifically said I don’t suspect this young man of anything, perhaps I’m not best placed to answer.

I think asking if someone is dbs checked is akin (in this situation) to ask if it’s a formal arrangement or someone’s young man who’s just popped in to lend a hand.

I’ve got no problem with people questioning if people working or volunteering with their kids are DBS checked. I’m sure BO didn’t mind the OP asking either. I dint think this is the issue here.

I think asking if someone is dbs checked is akin (in this situation) to ask if it’s a formal arrangement or someone’s young man who’s just popped in to lend a hand

Would you ask a woman, though? If they had just popped in to lend a hand or was it a formal arrangement?
That's the point being made.

Well people have asked it about me and I’m female?

I'm/any parent is entitled to ask about DBS checks. In any context. Any time.

Of course you are. But do you ask if all of the helpers, leaders and volunteers are DVS checked it is just male ones?

You haven't only asked about DBS, you've also said that you should have been given advance notice if him being there - again, do you require the same notice about any new helper?

Finally, if your only query is around the DVS well, you had your answer before starting the thread so what is the point of the thread?

Well people have asked it about me and I’m female?

Was it because you touched them on the shoulder though? That they were questioning their safeguarding rules because you were there?

I think they wanted to know what my role was but didn’t know how to ask. They wondered what hoops had to be jumped through. I’m guessing though.

I think asking if someone is dbs checked is akin (in this situation) to ask if it’s a formal arrangement or someone’s young man who’s just popped in to lend a hand.

Maybe if they're anxious and want complete reassurance, but would they really not expect them to know Safeguarding 101 that all helpers aged over 18 must have DBS checks, however long they're there for? As a PP said, if it was the leader's 23yo daughter dropping in to help, going on the OP's tone, I somehow doubt that anybody would have thought to ask.

Do these same people, on meeting a GP at their surgery for the first time, also make sure to ask if s/he is a qualified and DBS-checked GP before proceeding?

If you trust an organisation, I'd expect such a basic part of running it to be implicit; and if you don't trust them, then what on earth are you doing letting your children go there?