Talk me through this - male on placement with brownies

[nevernotstruggling]

The dds have been to the same brownie unit for around 4 years (dd1 waiting to move up to guides). I know the leaders quite well and there has been one staff changeover in that time. The communication with parents has been excellent. I have felt safe letting the dds go on sleepovers knowing that I know all the adults involved. It's actually been brilliant in terms of safeguarding. No surprises or anything parents haven't been informed of. The dds love it. Dd2 is thriving there because it's a small closed group where she feels safe and familiar.

I dropped the dds off this week and a man came up to dd1 touches her shoulder and said 'you're it' I said to brown owl - who is that?? She replied oh it's Dave (not his name obvs). Me - who is Dave??? BO - he's on work placement (something about youth work) . Me - Er is he DBS checked?? BO- yes. Me- Brownies is a girls group!! BO - we have dads helping! No they don't. Not once the whole time we have attended.

Apparently Dave will be there for 4 weeks.

My reaction has been negative. I'm quite annoyed there was no warning of Dave jointing the unit. There have never been 'work placements' before. I think it was be something to do with the church though.

I think parents should have been told. They use a private Facebook group to keep in touch with parents and this works really well so I'm a bit baffled by the surprise!

@Ekhart if Hearhoovesthinkzebras Wasn’t suggesting that this thread discussing the issue shouldn’t be happening what on Earth was the intent of the post. If some people aren't going because they don't like the set up, that's up to them This is obviously kind of you to reiterate but what I actually said was that, that was what I had chosen for my children, because I didn’t think safeguarding was central to guiding because of the issue I highlighted.

I do wonder why this is causing such consternation. If you send your child to guides you obviously think mixed sex dormitories are fine on residential. I think you’re misguided but that’s why I don’t do that.

If you think Male adults in female activities don’t change the dynamic despite enormous amounts of evidence to the contrary, then all I can say is let’s agree to disagree, because to me it’s a ludicrous suggestion.

I wonder what activities you do allow your children to participate in if you want them to be entirely segregated from males? I’ve never said I want my children to be entirely segregated from men. I have no idea where you’ve pulled that little fantasy from.

Well that's how it's coming across.

This thread is about a man helping out at a Brownie meeting. It's not about mixed sex dormitories or guide camp.

So do you have an issue with male volunteers helping out or not?

And I stand by what I said about not blaming any man for refusing to volunteer with any activity involving children because why should they be subjected to some of the comments seen on here just for giving up their time to help out?

Maybe you would prefer these groups to close down or school trips cease to run instead?

Maybe you could spout any nonsense and just suggest that’s what others think?

I don't know if we're reading the same thread, 5zeds? You're extrapolating, and putting words in people's mouths. I don't think anybody has said it shouldn't be discussed. There are lots of different ways of discussing a subject, though. This thread has some unpleasant posts.

Whether having a male present changes the dynamic isn't relevant to this discussion because the organisation doesn't claim to be a female only space. If so many PPs think Brownies safeguarding doesn't pass muster, I wonder how many of them have told the organisation about this? Or are they happy to leave all those girls at risk?

@5zedsz your daughter doesn't have to go on residentials, you know.
I find it weird that anyone would prevent their daughter from joining brownies because, on a residential, theoretically (and however unlikely) there might be 'mixed dorms'

I find it weird anyone would, @saraclara. Different people have different boundaries. We can find better things to do with our time.

This is an example of how in RL people recognise even in very able groups women struggle with male dominance. What I’m suggesting is that at brownies I would be hoping for girls to be finding their voices and strengths without that element. So a female leader would for me be preferable.

I completely understand the merit in female-only activities for girls or for women. Having boys in Brownies or Guides would likely change the dynamic significantly, as would having men in the WI.

However, we're talking about helpers and enablers here, not participants in the activities. Do you really think that a man in his 20s - a youth worker - is going to run around boisterously, shouting and squabbling with the girls because he wants the coloured felt pen that they're using or he's desperate to be crowned the winner of the children's game that they're playing?

You may well choose to invite your female friends out for a social meal, and enjoy the lack of male influence/dominance in the group; but would it actually matter to you if it was a male waiter who served you by bringing your food and drinks? Not much different in principle, surely?

I just asked my son what he does actually does when he helps out at Beavers
he puts the tables up and gets out what they need for the activity, pens, craft stuff, paper etc, he takes the drinks list, makes the squash and opens the biscuits, does the washing up, clears up after the activity and puts the tables away. If he has time he checks if anyone needs help.
I imagine thats what most helpers do. I'm struggling to see how that would dominate the girls.

I'm wondering if there have been the same attitudes among many men in very male-dominated STEM-type jobs that have, over the last two or three decades, been transitioning to give women opportunities to join their ranks.

"Building, plumbing and engineering need an analytical mind and physical strength. Also, you often get dirty - and there's a lot of laddish banter to help pass the day that we'd feel uncomfortable participating in if we had to have women with us as well. I'm sure they mean well and some of them can probably be trusted to do a reasonable job, but I just think it's easier and more straightforward to keep it a male-only environment. They can always get jobs in nurseries and supermarkets, or just stay at home doing the housework, so I really would question why they'd want to join us anyway - probably just looking to cause a scene and make a point."

Not quite the same negative consequences for wee girls if it goes wrong, though, Sausage?

So what do you suggest fascinated? We don't ever challenge negative stereotypes?

Or do we manage risk in a measured way that protects all involved ?

5zeds I can say this because I am familiar (through my work) with how they report/prevent safeguarding incidents involving adults working with children. Which is what I thought we were talking about.

You could have said it anyway @Emmapeeler1 you can just have an opinion.

Not quite the same negative consequences for wee girls if it goes wrong, though, Sausage?

If what 'goes wrong'? What do you actually mean by that? We're not talking about tamed lions at a circus who forget/ignore their training, revert to their wild instincts and gore the trainer. These are DBS-checked adult humans, working in sizeable groups in close proximity to other DBS-checked adult humans, almost all of whom - whether DBS-checked or not - are not actually child abusers anyway.

Of the tiny percentage of all people who abuse children, a very large majority are men. Of the tiny percentage of people committing online financial scams which devastate people's lives, a very high proportion of them are Nigerian. Would you avoid employing/working with/trusting a Nigerian - who is overwhelmingly likely to be one of the vast majority who is not out to scam anybody - just in case 'it goes wrong'?

Plenty of women abuse small children (girls and boys) too - probably not so often sexually, but in other life-changingly traumatically evil ways. Everybody is focusing on male child abusers using volunteering at children's clubs as a way to access their victims; what about female child abusers, who apparently don't need any form of cover for their nefarious deeds, as being female is enough to have them waved straight on through as trusted by default, just by virtue of their not being men.

Offer to volunteer instead

That "offer to volunteer instead" suggestion has been made many times and funnily enough, the OP hasn't once acknowledged or responded to it.

It's almost as if she's quite happy to have a stance as long as it doesn't actually inconvenience her in any measurable way. 🤔

Not read all the replies
(It's 19 pages)
He's DBS checked?
So what, then?
Wouldn't have a problem with this what so ever.
Do you question whether all the leaders are checked or do you only leave that for the blokes?

I said clearly earlier that I am not saying he shouldn’t be there.

Just that OP is not unreasonable to have misgivings. And that it is fine to double check for a dbs cert and to expect some notice of a male turning up. Read my posts. There’s a happy medium and OP and her daughter‘s feelings matter.

It is others who are exaggerating.

What has he done to warrant "misgivings" by you though?
Just the fact that he's male? As that's ridiculous.

Just that OP is not unreasonable to have misgivings. And that it is fine to double check for a dbs cert and to expect some notice of a male turning up.

There's another thread currently going, asking what concerns would have been raised had AIBU been around in previous decades. Sadly, I can imagine people having asked something like this:

"A new colleague has started at my work place - all fine.... except it turns out that they're black, and nobody ever even warned us of this. AIBU to worry that they might not understand the complexities of polite western culture and start trying to behave in their traditional primitive tribal ways? In fact, I have no way of knowing if they even have a right to be in the country, so I'm not BU to ask them to show me their birth certificate and passport am I, just so that I can be sure? I really doubt their intentions. I know this is going to sound unbelievable, but they've actually gone as far as spending a lot of time and effort in trying to imitate a very convincing Welsh accent(!), presumably so they can use it as a cover by pretending to be like one of us and slip under the radar when they start their tricks. I asked where they were born and they told me Bangor which, if I'm not very mistaken, is the capital of the Gambia. I'm just really worried - my bigoted racist prejudices instincts wouldn't just kick in for no reason, would they?"

It's almost as if she's quite happy to have a stance as long as it doesn't actually inconvenience her in any measurable way.

One of my family members (female, as it happens), devotes a lot of time and effort to volunteering and leading a Guide group at the local community centre. She doesn't have a daughter herself (so obviously a red flag....), but she always says that she so thoroughly enjoyed attending herself as a child.

Somebody unconnected with the group recently started a rumour that they were uncommitted, lacked the ability or desire to discipline or control the girls and that the girls found the group really boring as they didn't ever do anything interesting or exciting.

Oddly enough, the girls themselves, their parents and those who do put themselves out to volunteer confirmed that they knew this to be nothing but ridiculous lies - and were effusive in their thanks and praise for all that the adults who lead it do.

It would seem that some people get on and 'do' whilst others just prefer to stand back and fault-find.

It's almost as if she's quite happy to have a stance as long as it doesn't actually inconvenience her in any measurable way.
I think it is absolutely fine to draw an opinion or have concerns regardless of weather you can or do volunteer time. In this instance I doubt the young man is a physical threat as he is supervised, DBS checked and, well, it’s unlikely.

Sausage — I don’t appreciate the implication that what I am saying is racist. That’s a disgraceful accusation. We have a DBS System for a reason, and OP is entitled to ask if it is being used.

Comparing black people and white people to men and women is just gobsmacking. Wtf? You do understand that both black and white women are just women, right?