Talk me through this - male on placement with brownies

[nevernotstruggling]

The dds have been to the same brownie unit for around 4 years (dd1 waiting to move up to guides). I know the leaders quite well and there has been one staff changeover in that time. The communication with parents has been excellent. I have felt safe letting the dds go on sleepovers knowing that I know all the adults involved. It's actually been brilliant in terms of safeguarding. No surprises or anything parents haven't been informed of. The dds love it. Dd2 is thriving there because it's a small closed group where she feels safe and familiar.

I dropped the dds off this week and a man came up to dd1 touches her shoulder and said 'you're it' I said to brown owl - who is that?? She replied oh it's Dave (not his name obvs). Me - who is Dave??? BO - he's on work placement (something about youth work) . Me - Er is he DBS checked?? BO- yes. Me- Brownies is a girls group!! BO - we have dads helping! No they don't. Not once the whole time we have attended.

Apparently Dave will be there for 4 weeks.

My reaction has been negative. I'm quite annoyed there was no warning of Dave jointing the unit. There have never been 'work placements' before. I think it was be something to do with the church though.

I think parents should have been told. They use a private Facebook group to keep in touch with parents and this works really well so I'm a bit baffled by the surprise!

for me “leader” roles at brownies are better taken by females. Strong female role models, female only activities and female social interaction. I’m not sure what’s so hard to understand?

That's perfectly fine for you to decide for your family, but the Brownie organisation doesn't agree with you, so you'll need to either set up your own 100% male-free environment or not let your daughters attend.

It's the same principle as the regular threads that come up on MN - not the ones asking out of interest what first brought men and women who aren't mothers to MN, but the ones complaining that non-mothers of one or more variety shouldn't be allowed. MNHQ have categorically rejected this suggestion, but nobody is stopping these people from setting up their own forum and banning anybody whom they don't want on there from joining.

I think what people find hard to understand is that we are no longer a society in general where everything to do with children is expected to be done by women. Men are accorded both the opportunities (subject to due safeguarding and criminal records checks) and the responsibilities of looking after, serving, bonding and building relationships with children, without it being considered exclusively 'women's work'.

The reverse has also happened, where women are no longer actively excluded from working outside the home (or judged harshly and paid peanuts if they do*), because this is exclusively 'men's work'.

• Of course, looking after and serving children was also considered extremely easy value-less work - more a hobby, really - and so not respected or deemed to be worth anything. This is largely why it was the exclusive preserve of women - because it was supposedly beneath men and an insult to them to suggest that they might do their fair share, when they clearly had far more important things to do with their superior time and abilities.

So much deliberate misunderstanding on this thread.

No. There really isn't.

This thread has be interesting in ways I can't get my head around.

I agree, OP. I am a teacher and work with a lot of male colleagues who teach girls as well as boys, and run trips and residential activities which are open to girls and boys alike. If they had any idea of the absolute hysteria which their mere existence in this role creates in some people, judging by this thread, they would be absolutely amazed. Fortunately, it seems, the parents at the school I work in are much more sane and sensible, not to mention appearing to have a much more intelligent understanding of risk assessment!

Because it is and I think we all know why it is for goodness sake

No, Georgia, we don't all "know why it is [weird]", so why don't you spell out your bigotry very clearly for those of us who are struggling to keep up?

Has everyone missed the bit in the OP where the OP said the male volunteer came up to her DD and touched her shoulder? I
Do
And??

5zeds do you let your DDs go on school residentials?

Oh the horror. He touched her shoulder!!!! Obviously a pervert.

Give your head a wobble OP you sound ridiculous and extrmely sexist. Why don't you volunteer your time to help out?

@5zeds what exactly is a female only activity?

That's perfectly fine for you to decide for your family, but the Brownie organisation doesn't agree with you, so you'll need to either set up your own 100% male-free environment or not let your daughters attend. yes my post stated quite clearly that this was the reason my dds don’t attend guides.

5zeds do you let your DDs go on school residentials? They have been in the past but wouldn’t go if there weren’t single sex dormitories now. A school residential is unlikely to be a single sex environment though so a slightly different scenario.

@5zeds what exactly is a female only activity? seriously? . Everybody involved in the activity is female. It’s WHY most people choose activities that don’t include boys. It allows girls to have a female place to interact without dominant male voices and talk freely about issues that are female. Why is that an issue? Presumably people who are looking for a mixed sex experience join the cubs?

5zeds do you let your DDs go on sleepovers? Do you have a male partner, do you see him as a threat to other females as you see other males are to your DDs?

@5zeds. You seem to be suggesting male voices are dominant. That is a sweeping suggestion and one that is sexist. Even if you found a special female only space for your dd I can assure you there will be some "loud, dominant" voices that your dd will have to learn to deal with. It's such a shame your dd is missing out by not joining in with guiding. My preteen and teen years were enriched by the fun and life experiences I had from guides. My dd has been a rainbow, brownie, guide and now Ranger. She too has had fun, learnt loads and made many friends. But your dd won't have these opportunities because of your (imho) unsubstantiated and frankly quite hysterical fears of men or boys having any role in guiding.
To all those who have ever given up their precious free time to volunteer in any capacity for gg (whatever your sex or gender) thank you so much ! You are doing an amazing job.

I see mixed sex dormitories as unacceptable and don’t allow my children to sleep in them. I am not apposed to mixed activities it’s just not what I would be looking for at Brownies/guides. You can characterise that as some sort of weird fear of men or over protectiveness but that’s really not the case.

That’s ok @Hellvelyn as I said up thread I’ve been in many female dominated and male dominated environments. Perhaps you haven’t? Why does it bother you that there is a difference in dynamic in single sex environments? It’s REALLY well documented. It’s not some weird idea I’ve picked out of the ether.

This is an example of how in RL people recognise even in very able groups women struggle with male dominance. What I’m suggesting is that at brownies I would be hoping for girls to be finding their voices and strengths without that element. So a female leader would for me be preferable.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/how-the-women-on-obamas-staff-made-sure-their-voices-were-heard_n_57d94d9fe4b0aa4b722d79fe?ri18n=true&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9jb25zZW50LnlhaG9vLmNvbS9jb2xsZWN0Q29uc2VudD9zZXNzaW9uSWQ9M19jYy1zZXNzaW9uXzEzMjhkNmQ4LWI5NzYtNDE4ZC04OGI3LWRhNGYzZWJlMDY0YyZsYW5nPWVuLXVzJmlubGluZT1mYWxzZQ&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIUlY70jnkVZ6VAWYDrFgUK9gOOc_oyDx7L2qQx9CbRRGvTb_JJh1TMGjjfZB9XRxIczrJi6Uv7qASHQ7oGJ-0gP2cKujFGuDDGitzA-UkXpGLBtUwy7THDm3Bba90tgO86yEKGQd6Z04qkAFNaDKjQaS7FBHggSWx-pr795e54-

The discussion about males in the dormitories on trips is separate to that and in response to someone up thread suggesting safeguarding was at the heart of guiding policy.

Chickenwing The Women’s Institute, for example. And presumably Girl Guides (so including Rainbows and Brownies).

I wouldn't blame any man reading this thread making the decision to never volunteer with an youth activity, that would include girl guides, scouts, school trips.

When these can never go ahead the posters on this thread can explain to all of the children missing out the reason why.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras so basically you think we shouldn’t even TALK about the value of single sex activities?

@5zeds you are doing more than just talking about the benefits of female only spaces. Your are actively keeping your dd away from guiding because she might come into contact with boys/men. I still don't understand. How could the presence of Dave or my DS or the male family member of a guider or a Brownie's dad pose a threat or negatively affect your dd? Your concerns must be pretty serious for you to keep her away from all that guiding offers. Before you suggest I am somehow naive about safeguarding, I am a safeguarding lead at a high school so well understand the need to protect children and the procedures in place to allow this to happen.

@Hellvelyn you’re conflating two issues.

1. I don’t allow my daughter to join guides because they have a policy of not only allowing Male teens to share dormitories with females but also of not informing parents if there are males in the group. I don’t think mixed sex sleeping/washing/toilets are appropriate and so choose not to expose my daughters to them.
2. I think that single sex activities are good for girls and that I would prefer leaders to be female role models at these single sex activities. The negative effect is that it is no longer a female activity if men are present. The dynamic is changed and it is a mixed sex activity. I would suggest that that isn’t what most people are looking for from brownies or guides. People looking for that experience would surely head for cubs or similar.

Why is it a problem for girls to spend some time in single sex environments?

I would suggest that that isn’t what most people are looking for from brownies or guides

And yet they've allowed male presence for years and still have lots of members. Do you suppose most people are not speaking their minds and sending their daughters to a group that doesn't actually provide what they want or need?

I think there’s enormous pressure to put up and shut up. Look at the previous posters crashing their “impressive” safeguarding credentials, suggesting children are being disadvantaged by Parents not overcoming their totally unremarkable reservations about mixed sex dorms, refusing to acknowledge decades of observed advantages of single sex experience for girls....not all the same poster but fairly depressing. I suspect there are many girls who don’t participate because the set up isn’t what their parents feel is safe, or what they would have wanted. How would you know, even discussing it seems to be abhorrent to some posters.

There are some very silly ladies on here.

We wouldn't know. But any parent who sends their child to a club they feel is not advantageous and safe, rather than speak out/leave, needs to sort themselves out. Nobody is pressured to send their child to brownies, and a group can't be held responsible for not meeting the needs of everyone. If some people aren't going because they don't like the set up, that's up to them.

I haven't seen anybody on the thread saying it's abhorrent to discuss it. Do you mean the ones who think it's crap to label Dave as 'risky' simply for being male?

5zeds
You aren't just talking about the value of single sex activities though are you?

I wonder what activities you do allow your children to participate in if you want them to be entirely segregated from males? Are they not allowed to do anything at all because I can't think of a single institution where you will never come into contact with a male.