Talk me through this - male on placement with brownies

[nevernotstruggling]

The dds have been to the same brownie unit for around 4 years (dd1 waiting to move up to guides). I know the leaders quite well and there has been one staff changeover in that time. The communication with parents has been excellent. I have felt safe letting the dds go on sleepovers knowing that I know all the adults involved. It's actually been brilliant in terms of safeguarding. No surprises or anything parents haven't been informed of. The dds love it. Dd2 is thriving there because it's a small closed group where she feels safe and familiar.

I dropped the dds off this week and a man came up to dd1 touches her shoulder and said 'you're it' I said to brown owl - who is that?? She replied oh it's Dave (not his name obvs). Me - who is Dave??? BO - he's on work placement (something about youth work) . Me - Er is he DBS checked?? BO- yes. Me- Brownies is a girls group!! BO - we have dads helping! No they don't. Not once the whole time we have attended.

Apparently Dave will be there for 4 weeks.

My reaction has been negative. I'm quite annoyed there was no warning of Dave jointing the unit. There have never been 'work placements' before. I think it was be something to do with the church though.

I think parents should have been told. They use a private Facebook group to keep in touch with parents and this works really well so I'm a bit baffled by the surprise!

So...men get slated for not getting involved but also FOR getting involved.
They can’t win.

And the girls with trauma, should they just put up and shut up, then

Sadly yes. But it’s a trend through society at the moment. Apparently females don’t need safe spaces anymore. Because bad things only happen in news papers, not in Rl.

When i did 3 years of (boy) cubs in the 80s the two main leaders were female, but that's ok because men are pedos or something

And don't forget that low profile volunteering work is the responsibility of females rather than the males with their important man-jobs.

I think this thread is actually really depressing. Brownies is not a safe space, it is an organisation for young female people to spend time together and develop skills away from boys. Having a male volunteer leader for a few weeks doesn't change this - BO is probably delighted to have some extra enthusiastic help.

Some bizarre comments - yes men are more likely to be paedophiles but they work as teachers, doctors, nurses and the risk is managed via dbs etc. If him coming up to her child in that way made OP feel uncomfortable then mention that to BO. Wtf does it have to do with transgender the helper is male? Are we now going to be more negative about males because they may pretend to be women even though he isn't? 🤔

*And the girls with trauma, should they just put up and shut up, then

Sadly yes. But it’s a trend through society at the moment. Apparently females don’t need safe spaces anymore. Because bad things only happen in news papers, not in Rl.*

Since when is Brownies supposed to be a male-free therapy space for traumatised girls? There's people OTT saying their dads used to help out at Brownies when they were kids. This isn't to do with a current societal trend to clamp down on female only spaces. If your child is too traumatised to attend, then don't take them there. Same as not taking your child who witnessed a car accident to a go-carting party. Not everything has to be designed to cater for trauma.

Seems like a bit of a silly thing to get your knickers in a twist about @nevernotstruggling I’m sure there’s nothing sinister about it. Would there be a problem with a woman at scouts/cubs?

Some people are behaving as if 97% of men are sex offenders

Maybe some of us who are vulnerable have personally witnessed what a fair few of these 'pillar of the community' men are like when their wives/ the church/ their colleagues aren't looking.

If you've had a life where the vast majority of men have been nothing but good to you then bully for you, I envy you.

In my experience 'lovely' men tend to behave a lot worse when with someone vulnerable or classed as the bottom.of the pile, who they don't think will tell/fight back.

OP

Guides is now a single gender not single sex organisation. If 'Dave' decides he is identifying as a woman he can help your dds with personal care,

It's not too much to ask that your day guests act as though they want to be there.

How does having one DBS checked man helping in a group with a number of female helpers around render Brownies an unsafe space?

@niceclock thank you - quite straightforward really isn't it

As though women and girls aren't allowed to have boundaries and preferences for single sex spaces.

Of course we are. But that doesn't mean we are entitled to impose that preference in contexts when no-one has ever represented that it will be a totally single sex environment. When DD was in Brownies there were regularly at least one or two fathers helping out, and no-one turned a hair because we knew the group needed that help. She didn't go because she or I thought it would be single sex, but because she and her friends just wanted to do it.

Not everything has to be designed to cater for trauma

God that's a really sad statement. And by sad I mean 😥

No, it's a realistic statement.

It’s great that the girls will have that male influence for a short while.

What's great about it? Serious question.

Depends what you mean by 'personal care' but generally no leader should randomly helping a child with personal care.

If they have a particular need where they need help with dressing/toiletting etc then a care plan should be in place with designated adults. Unforseen accidents I would talk the child through it encourage from outside the room/tent. In extreme cases where it is necessary to be more hand on in an emergency you should have a second adult.

Why is that sad? I'm not saying that trauma shouldn't be catered for, but that each individual's trauma has a very specific set of needs which should be adhered to as closely as possible so as to minimise their future trauma and help them with any steps to recovery they can make. This involves avoiding triggering situations. If a trauma victim is triggered by there being a man present, the answer isn't to get rid of men in all spaces.

@nevernotstruggling If every single activity (for kids or adults) had to cater for every type of trauma that any person might have had in their life..well I don't need to go on, surely. That's an impossible ask.
Are you going to blame a school for planning a trip on a coach when one of their pupils (unknown to them) was once in a coach crash? Blame a running group for ruining past a field with a horse in it because you one had a traumatic fall from a horse?

What nicelock said.

He probably is perfectly fine, but with my guide leader and teacher hats both on;

1. he shouldn’t have just ‘tagged’ ops daughter as she arrived without an intro. No grown up should do that, it’s not surprising that that got a negative reaction. I was a shy child who found arriving at places difficult, an unexpected tag from an unknown person like that especially a man would have made me cry with panic. Most adults instinctively would not put a child in that position, it’s not kind, it doesn’t respect her boundaries.

2. it’s a bit weird when adults join in with games, it’s certainly something most of us avoid.

3. there’s no so thing as a placement with brownies so somebody isn’t quite telling the truth.

there’s no so thing as a placement with brownies so somebody isn’t quite telling the truth.

Rubbish. I know several youngsters who had placements at brownies for their DofE awards

t’s a bit weird when adults join in with games, it’s certainly something most of us avoid.

Why is it? I was a senior youth leader for many years with a different organisation and we actively encouraged our leaders to take part in games and activities. Infact we ran training sessions which included sessions on games and getting the leaders used to joining in!

Sara - children volunteering for their DofE ( we have some in my unit) are clearly not on work placements . Some of them choose to be ‘Young Leaders’ and follow a particular program.

Eckheart your I’m all right jack stance is staggering. Are you honestly saying dealing with trauma is too complex so we should just not have to deal with it and the victims can just go away and deal with it themselves?

Should we let rape crises centres be run by men too? What about women’s shelters? Maybe females should just stay in the house eh?

And GOD forbid a female ever be raised with out the positive influence of men! Christ how would we cope!!

Sirzy, obviously leaders join in with activities but most of us avoid physical contact!

he shouldn’t have just ‘tagged’ ops daughter as she arrived without an intro. No grown up should do that, it’s not surprising that that got a negative reaction. I was a shy child who found arriving at places difficult, an unexpected tag from an unknown person like that especially a man would have made me cry with panic. Most adults instinctively would not put a child in that position, it’s not kind, it doesn’t respect her boundaries

This. I dropped my dd off at nursery one morning and the handy man who works there was outside by the door. I’ve seen him a million times before pottering about but never talked to him. But this morning he came over and kneeled down on one knee and gave dd (3) a hug and said ‘good morning Dd’ - dd looked at me bewildered and it got my shackles up immediately. He’s never done that before. It was incredibly innocuous but it made me feel really uncomfortable. I mentioned it to the nursery staff and they said all the kids love him and flock to him when he comes in

It still doesn’t sit right with me tbh.

Fibreoptic Yes, there's a lot of staggering posts here, aren't there.

I find your twisting of my words staggering. My point is that the Brownies is not, and does not claim to be, a male free space, or a support space for girls traumatised by men.

You seem to think this means I think that all male free spaces should be eradicated. I don't think that all male free spaces should be eradicated. I can't put it plainer.

I was so shy that I hated things like tag - I didn’t want to be ‘it’, i can almost feel my face burning now. The thought of being tagged and having to run off and join in before I’d said goodbye to my mum is awful. My heart was beating hard enough as it was. I actually feel quite upset just imagining it!