Talk me through this - male on placement with brownies

[nevernotstruggling]

The dds have been to the same brownie unit for around 4 years (dd1 waiting to move up to guides). I know the leaders quite well and there has been one staff changeover in that time. The communication with parents has been excellent. I have felt safe letting the dds go on sleepovers knowing that I know all the adults involved. It's actually been brilliant in terms of safeguarding. No surprises or anything parents haven't been informed of. The dds love it. Dd2 is thriving there because it's a small closed group where she feels safe and familiar.

I dropped the dds off this week and a man came up to dd1 touches her shoulder and said 'you're it' I said to brown owl - who is that?? She replied oh it's Dave (not his name obvs). Me - who is Dave??? BO - he's on work placement (something about youth work) . Me - Er is he DBS checked?? BO- yes. Me- Brownies is a girls group!! BO - we have dads helping! No they don't. Not once the whole time we have attended.

Apparently Dave will be there for 4 weeks.

My reaction has been negative. I'm quite annoyed there was no warning of Dave jointing the unit. There have never been 'work placements' before. I think it was be something to do with the church though.

I think parents should have been told. They use a private Facebook group to keep in touch with parents and this works really well so I'm a bit baffled by the surprise!

I do appreciate that there may be very valid reasons. However, maybe this could make a tiny little step in the direction of being able to help to see that not all people of one gender are the same. What would happen if the first experience of a man was as a class teacher for example?

Seems no one has given a thought to the reason the ops dd might rather a female only space, or why the OP might rather her dd have a female only space.

Brownies is not a female only space. Male unit helpers are allowed. it's only chance that OP's unit has never had a male helper before now. There was always the possibility that one could join at any moment. Or that a Brownie's dad could come in and help on a day when they needed extra helpers. Or that a specialist instructor might be male. You can't join an organisation that clearly points out that they allow male helpers, and then complain when a male helper starts ...

This reminds me of Michael O’Leary’s recent comments about Muslims travelling on planes.

Surely any genuine peace-loving Muslim would make sure they didn’t put themselves in a position of travelling on a plane with non-Muslims, wouldn’t they?

Non-Muslims aren't an oppressed class. And they're certainly not a class oppressed by Muslims.

So your analogy only works if you're Islamophobic.

You can't join an organisation that clearly points out that they allow male helpers, and then complain when a male helper starts

This ^^

I think female-only spaces are important and should be protected. But it's disingenuous to assert that that's what this thread is about, and disingenuous to pretend that the OP's opening post doesn't have very clear undertones of "all men are perverts".

Non-Muslims aren't an oppressed class. And they're certainly not a class oppressed by Muslims.

So your analogy only works if you're Islamophobic.

Who said anything about oppression? The original point was about statistics. Most child abusers are identified as men, albeit a very tiny minority of all men, the vast majority of whom are decent people; most terrorists are identified as Muslims, albeit a very tiny minority of all Muslims, the vast majority of whom are decent people.

@gamerwidow Yes, I know this. But how is Dave different from a transwoman? Both are men. Why would parents have to be informed if Dave was to look after girls, as opposed to Davina, who has probably kept his penis?

My point was, was that GGHQ can not be trusted to ensure safe-guarding measures for girls are in place anymore.

The girl guide website says :

Adult members can be:

women aged 18 and over who have made or make the Promise, are actively involved in and responsible for the delivery of guiding to girls and young women and agree to abide by Girlguiding’s policies and code of conduct

women aged 18 and over who have made or make the Promise, continue to support Girlguiding and agree to abide by its policies and code of conduct

women and men aged 18 and over who do not make the Promise but who believe in the ethos of guiding, wish to support it and agree to abide by Girlguiding’s policies and code of conduct

women and men who belong to the Trefoil Guild.

Men can be adult members. If you think it is a female only space you should have done your homework before joining

@WeAllHaveWings - fine, and there used to be in the GGs good safe-guarding policies in place to protect girls from men who were decent people, interested in helping female children. But since GGHQ allowed the policies described below, I cannot fathom how anyone can trust their vetting procedures.

morningmail.org/girlguiding-uk-allows-transgender-guides-share-showers-tents/

@RedskyAtnight by talk me through it -your post is kind of what I was after. What you describe sounds like it might be what's going on.

the girls who expect a single-sex space at Brownies?

I don't think it entered my daughters' heads that a reason for joining Brownies was to have a single sex space. Brownies was just a fun thing to do and something to join in with their friends.

I would say that the vast majority of girls of that age are unfazed by boys and doing things in mixed groups. They certainly wouldn't be fazed by a man helper. They go to school with boys, they have male teachers. Unless they've been through something traumatic, they don't go out of their way to seek girl only clubs.

I’m a brown owl - men are allowed as unit helpers.
My son helped last week at brownies as our young leader had to cancel at the last minute due to exams stuff. We couldn’t have gone ahead unless he helped.

It’s not so much an issue as ‘transgender’ people as leaders aren’t allowed to be alone with girls and aren’t allowed to sleep with them in tents anyway.

I like the single sex theme - but it’s no difference to having makes teachers in a girl’s school,

Someone quoted a statistic that said 97% of sex offenders are male.

Some people are behaving as if 97% of men are sex offenders.

And the girls with trauma, should they just put up and shut up, then?

Fascinated The girls with trauma should be given the support they need. That's got nothing to do with Dave at Brownies.

And the girls with trauma, should they just put up and shut up, then?

Yes, because they don't matter as much as men.

@SafeguardingAndSocialWork because your issue is that the fact a man is looking after the children is hidden. This is not the case here. You are muddying the waters with an issue about transwomen and Brownies which has no relevance here. It's a completely different issue.

A young man, who is a stranger to OP (and presumably also a stranger to her daughter) and who is volunteering at girl guides, touched the OP's daughter's shoulder.

He didn't say, 'hello, I'm Dave, a new volunteer. We're all playing tig. Would you like to play tig? Then you''re it', and briefly touch. He just dived straight in.

I personally would feel like Dave had breached a boundary. Probably innocently, but it would still feel like a breach to me.

And much like the OP, I too would feel concerned by this.

The OP hasn't done anything wrong in asking Brown Owl if Dave is CRB checked, and who is responsible for supervising his placement.

That's hopefully what all the Mums and Dads dropping off their kids have said. You know, just in case.

We all know how grooming works, don't we? That it's not just the children who get abused are groomed, but the adults too. The parents, the managers, the organisations these people work in. How these people enter the circle of trust, how everyone makes assumptions about how 'safe' they are. How nice they are. How their Mum or Dad or Uncle John is such a well-respected team member, how much they all do for charity. How any of their boundary breaches are minimised and ignored, how those boundary breaches progress, to touches, to tickles, to kisses, to alone-time, and to abuse.

I'm not saying that is what Dave is doing, of course. Dave could be a completely innocent chap and really want to be a youth worker and this is the only placement he's able to get. Maybe his Mum or his Gran was a Brown Owl. Maybe he doesn't really want to be around little girls, maybe he'd rather be at home, playing on his x-box, but how do we know? Dave could be worming his way into the church and it's associated groups for nefarious reasons and he wouldn't be the first to do this, would he?

It would probably benefit Dave to have some safeguarding training, wouldn't it? A class in how to keep himself, and others, as safe as possible.

@gamerwidow, unfortunately there are many posters on mumsnet who need no encouragement to turn almost any thread into a trans issue. And if it's a thread about either young girls, toilets of residential trips, it'll take no more than a few minutes. Whatever question the OP has asked.

It would probably benefit Dave to have some safeguarding training, wouldn't it?

If Dave is training to be a youth leader, it'll be one of the first things he's taught

My dad use to volunteer at brownies and he use to run rainbows when I was in it. Everyone still calls his hedgehog now 18 years later.

ITT: All men working with children are obviously trying to nonce on them.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Most child abusers are identified as men, albeit a very tiny minority of all men, the vast majority of whom are decent people; most terrorists are identified as Muslims, albeit a very tiny minority of all Muslims, the vast majority of whom are decent people.

An excellent analogy! I was struggling to think earlier of one which illustrates the nonsense of the way in which the 93% statistic gets trotted out.

Dave's on a work placement ( youth work).
He has been checked out.
Dave is probably peeved he drew the short straw and ended up at Brownies.
He probably goes home and worries about parents like you.

This ^ 100% Poor Dave.

I’m amazed a senior leader at your daughters brownies is a man. I had no idea that was allowed. In my day (a long time ago) it was all female.
When were you a Brownie @5zeds ? I was a Brownie from 1971, when Brown Owl's husband used to help out sometimes.

I will be instigating a conversation with GGHQ yes. Mainly because I can't identify this 'work placement' 4 week business with GG. I suspect it may be part of the church youth programme though their website simply states brownies is an external organisation.
and
Never heard of Youth Workers having placements in Guides, Brownies, Rainbows, Cubs, Scouts, or Rangers. And I'm a uni qualified Youth Worker and was a Guide Leader.
I wouldn't think its be enough for qualifying.

My reading of it is that he is on a placement with the Church. As part of that placement, he is linking with all the organisations that are linked to, or meet at, the Church. Just like our Church student is currently doing with our Scout Group, and like the student on placement at the Church at the other end of the High Street is doing with the Girls' Brigade and Boys' Brigade there.
The placement isn't 4 x Brownie meetings. The placement is with the Church, which includes working with all the organisations that meet there.

To make sure that they were biologically female? Seriously?

GG explicitly allow male guides to shower/sleep etc with female guides. Because men 'can only be helpers' there is no guidance about male leaders (who say they are women). Their safeguarding rules treat male leaders (who say they are women) in exactly the same way as female leaders.

This is not about assuming any malice on the part of men or trans people. If you are going to allow complete self-ID your safeguarding procedures should acknowlege the potential issues. Instead GG chuck out any leader who tries to discuss it.

I too had a good think and met the leaders before I let DD sign up.