Do you think Britain has an anti children culture?

[karencantobe]

I see this said a lot on here. So wondering what others think? And if you think yes it does, what do you actually mean by anti children? What would be different?

@ifnot is quite right. In the UK everything is child-centred (and if not is seen as child exclusive) whereas in other countries it's child inclusive.

These things are very different.

I've spent a lot of time in France (no not tourist areas) and have yet to find a restaurant or cafe that has play areas or would tolerate a noisy or disruptive child. What I have seen is relaxed children who are included in adult discussion over 'normal' (not kiddy) food because they are expected to behave and will not be pandered to.

I cringed in a restaurant in France when two women and 4 children from 2 to 8 yrs arrived for dinner (at 8pm) and were sat next to us. They sat chatting, they chose their own food and ordered from the waiter and the smallest was given shelled moules off his mother's plate. There was no screeching, no whining when they had finished, no coloured pens or iPads at the table just good natured chatting between the whole party. It was a revelation and a delight.

Yeah I think its the opposite; kids seem way too pandered to here, it's like nothing us expected of them.

I find kids are very “othered” here. They’re treated like these little things, rather than little humans. In my home country, children just do not behave in public the way they do here, it would be absolutely unacceptable.

Here in Italy dp (chef) despairs at how mothers will bring their own boxes of baby pasta to the restaurant. Yeah the kids are in there till midnight sitting at the same table as the adults and no there's no child menu. Because the kids will be fed pasta and sauce and fried chicken. They'll be served first so that after the adults can eat in peace while the (inevitably overtired) kids run riot.
MIL will still say "we're having X and the kids are having Y". My DD is 16 and her cousin 18 but they're still treated as kids and they still get pasta and sauce and breaded chicken at every meal.

I'm not in a tourist area. I am in an area where women tend to give up work once they have children (all that homework they have to supervise etc)

I tend to look to northern Europe for a happy medium. In the UK children are pandered to obsessively, here in Italy it's similarly obsessive but with a good wallop thrown in if they get a bad school report.

@BookMeOnTheSudExpress That is not at all my experience of Italy! (Do you live in a place beginning with T by any chance?)

Yes, that's me.

On the contrary, I think the UK is very child focused and they are welcome everywhere. What ruins it sometimes, is poor parenting.
That said, I don’t want kids in our local pub at 8pm on a Friday night when I just want to enjoy a nice meal without them getting up and down, running around or playing Peppa Pig. Plus I used to like the flickering tea lights on the tables, now removed because of small children 🙄.

Gosh people are so lovely to my little one. Always stopping to chat, so no. Some miserable bastards everywhere so probably luck of the draw on where you live

I am in the "anti shit/lazy parents" camp. Apparently (some) parents do not have to nurture their children anymore, teach them manners, how to behave in certain situations and respect others. Apparently they are just being children. I have family members with this attitude and we can't do anything with them as it really isn't an enjoyable experience although they don't seem to think that there is a problem. They are a bit better now the eldest is in school but it's not the school's job to teach these things. I do notice the look of dread on people's faces when we have turned up with our children to a nice restaurant etc. On quite a few occasions we have been complimented on their good behaviour. Behaviour that I would consider normal. It's sad that they feel the need to say something as I can only presume they are seeing more bad behaviour than good. Hostility towards children in the UK, IMO, has been brought on by the rise in parents not teaching basic respect and good manners. I avoid certain places because of this. I don't want to interact with a child that's being ignored and behaving badly. I am, however, happy to chat to a child that's polite and inquisitive.

Not really, but I do think Britain is without a stereotype that includes showy-fuss of children.

There's plenty of grouchy intolerant who dislike children in the counties used as an example as child friendly.

If you remove lack of long-term experience (of a population) and confirmation bias you find none of it's true.

I did BLW with DS1, that confused the heck out of my Italian relatives, when I gave him normal pasta and an apple that hadn't been grated It did allow me to feel smug when we took him out to eat and he tried everything though! (he was a bit older could eat neatly)

I agree a lot of Europe is more child inclusive but tbh DC also get told off a lot (In Italy at least) and that's why they are well behaved in public! Buses, trains, and church are tiring in Italy - have to do loads more shhhh!

Mostly the children that I notice in public are the ones running around, screaming, making a noise. Parents are way too overindulgent of entitled children.

Probably because your children are well behaved and respectful?

Based only on attitudes I see online, through tv, articles and to a small extent observing British people interacting with their children I think Britain isn’t terribly child friendly.

An emphasis on the relationship between child-parent as being a war or a battle. “Don’t let him sleep in your bed, he’ll win then and you’ll never see the end of it” “Don’t let him away with not eating x on his plate he’ll see you as weak” or similar.

An extraordinarily car centred culture despite the place being the size of a stamp. Planning isn’t focused on allowing free movement for children, parents with prams etc.

Children going to school in uniforms at an age when their desperate parents are posting on online forums about them not being able to wipe their own backsides yet (literally). Parents then agonising over whether they can stay home a day just because they’re tired or whatever and being told it will mar school attendance records and is just plain lazy. For children aged 4/5. Ridiculous. Also uniform culture in school doesn’t permit free play in all sorts of weather, which is negative.

Focus on behaviour and the external “look” of discipline (uniforms being just so and to an extent manners) instead of focus being on building strong relationships and respect in any real sense. A “seen not heard” attitude that seems like training the way to train animals.

Hot school dinners, lack of.

Defensive attitude to physical violence (smacking) (thankfully changing).

Not eating meals together as a family, instead eating separate child or adult dinners - general idea that children are not a natural part of life but something separate allowed in on sufferance.

Related to the above - no subsidised childcare and not a lot of parental leave, and parental leave is not encouraged for fathers too.

I think those are my main observations ( broad brushstrokes mind). I don’t think the Brits are necessarily worse/better than Europeans, there are always degrees and differences.

I think it depends where you live really. I personally found people gave me an easier ride in London when I went with my DC compared to when I go alone. I even had people smiling at us which was astonishing...

I live in a small town and it’s hit and miss. Most people are ok but you get the odd narky twat, usually old women I have found...

Wow Banivani you got all that from Based only on attitudes I see online, through tv, articles and to a small extent observing British people interacting with their children
😂
Where do you live? I would like to give a full analysis of your people's failings based on what I have read on the back of a cornflake packet. Thanks in advance.

My kids were in primary in NZ and were in uniform. Didn't stunt their personal growth or ability to shimmy up trees, rugby posts, and get covered in mud! After all, the uniform was a sweatshirt, polo shirt, and shorts, all easily thrown in the wash.

I am glad that they didn't start school until they turned 5. (It could be 6, if a parent deemed it best). They were just still not quite there yet, in terms of being able to keep up for the day. Four seems so very ditty!

A lack of a hot school dinner really isn't a tragedy. Mine had a good, healthy well balanced cut lunch, that catered to their tastes, and to their allergies, a good afternoon tea when they got home, and a good hot meal early in the evening, before early to bed, adjusting as they got older.

The girls ate before we did, but I/we always sat with them, talking with them, etc, making sure they ate nicely and well, and that they enjoyed their food.

I think my main thing is that kids need to feel a welcome part of things, both in their family and in the wider community at large. To be a welcome part of things, kids need to be given the tools to be genuinely welcomed - so manners, courtesy, and consideration for others - things that need to not just be taught to them, but modelled in front of them by the adults, as the default way of behaving. And because they're learning, because sometimes they get overloaded, or have a bad day, sometimes it's not going to go as well as was hoped.

It if both really. When I’ve been on holiday, my daughter has been treated like a rock star and while a stereotype, I’ve found service in Italian (not chain ones) or Thai restaurants over here quite different to generic pubs. There just seems to be a more welcoming attitude to little ones.

But, I agree there are also some shit parents and bratty kids about that are annoying for others.

Where do you get lack of hot school dinners from Banivani?
All my children have had the option of a hot lunch at every school they've attended. And school meals are currently free for children in the first 3 years of schooling in England, and for those from families on low incomes or in receipt of certain benefits thereafter.
Their school uniforms never prevented them playing. How does a sweatshirt with a logo on it get in the way of play any more than one without a logo that they might wear at home? And believe it or not, the teachers are capable of applying common sense and requesting alternative clothing when an activity like Forest School etc is planned. I think you have perhaps seen too many pictures of 1950s prep school pupils in little suits and straw boaters - that isn't the norm in 21st century Britain. And even when it was, I doubt it stopped children who wanted to climb trees from doing so!
Parental leave provision in the UK may not be the best in the world but it is a lot better than in many countries (check out the USA for instance) and can now be shared equally by both parents if they wish.
There are free nursery and preschool places for families deemed most in need, and free at the point of delivery education available to all up to age 18.
No, the welfare system is not perfect and has been eroded in many ways in recent years but it still beats what is available in much of the world.
A lot of your other points are stereotypes which may apply to some, but certainly not all, families in the UK but some of the information you have picked up from the internet is simply not factual.