Do you think Britain has an anti children culture?

[karencantobe]

I see this said a lot on here. So wondering what others think? And if you think yes it does, what do you actually mean by anti children? What would be different?

Yes. From having a weird hang-up over discrete breast feeding to landlords not wanting children as their tenants, ie perfectly normal families with normal lives.

It’s getting better though. Cafes and pubs are much better than they were and few councils post No Ball Games signs.

@Bibidy I totally agree. Kids are underestimated IMO in Britain. Even small kids are far more capable than many think here.

I’ve never had anyone be anything but supportive of me with DC out and about. My experience is that if you are seen to be trying to fully engage with them and deal with any difficult behaviour then people are extremely kind.

Exactly, DelurkingAJ. There was a "lively" child across the aisle from me on a recent long-haul plane flight. I was not at all annoyed because both parents were doing their level best to calm him down and then when he had a meltdown they were both sweating and arguing in their efforts to get him to be quiet.

What prompts tuts and glares are parents who either don't care or have that smug "Aren't they just delightful?" expression on their faces.

No, if anything I think we've gone to far the other way. There was a big improvement required from "seen and not heard" but now everything in a family revolves around the children and their needs always seem to take priority. I don't think this is healthy for the children or the parents/their relationship.

In other cultures where children are/were much more "seen" the children still fitted around the adults. e.g. children would have been joining in the conversation at the table, not taken to restaurants specifically catering for families.

@karencantobe Kids are underestimated IMO in Britain. Even small kids are far more capable than many think here.

Yep, and also I think we indoctrinate kids to be completely different to adults and make rods for our own backs.

So often I see people giving their kids only food like nuggets, waffles, beans etc etc every day, and then all of a sudden when they're 10 (or whatever) expecting them to magically eat loads of other foods. Obviously it's not going to happen!

Same with behaving in restaurants etc, they are never asked to so they never learn.

I don’t think Britain is anti-children but I do think there are a lot of entitled, self indulgent parents and rude, spoilt children and they annoy people.

@ElderAve I completely agree with everything you've said. It's like nowadays (here) parents can't expect their children to join in with anything except things they will overtly enjoy.

no, just anti-badly behaved ones with shit parents. Which unfortunately is quite a lot of them.

we all know that if you live near a primary school you expect terrible driving and an hour of engines running eacn morning. If it is a secondary you expect tons of litter. Because most kids are not taught any better by their equally spoilt, idle, skanky parents.

My experience is that if you are seen to be trying to fully engage with them and deal with any difficult behaviour then people are extremely kind.

What prompts tuts and glares are parents who either don't care or have that smug "Aren't they just delightful?" expression on their faces.

Exactly these points.

As for the “Europe” comments, I find when dining out in Europe the children are better behaved and their parents or wider family members more involved in talking to them, showing them how to behave etc. The only time I’ve ever seen children running riot in restaurants on holiday was in France and they were asked to leave after repeated warnings from the waiters. They were British children. I’ve found in France in particular that any anti-social diners are asked to leave and consideration is given to how the majority of diners feel.

In the US and Canada too, I’ve witnessed parents take their kids aside and gently explain to them why their behaviour is unsafe or unacceptable. I’ve overheard “use your indoor voice honey, there are other people trying to enjoy a nice meal.”, “You need to stay in your seat and mind your manners and then after dinner we will go for a walk and get you ice cream”, “don’t run off without mommy, there is hot food around and it’s dangerous”, “ok you can play with that but play quietly and turn the volume down” etc. I’ve also had parents apologise when their kids have run in front of me or bumped into me - that never seems to happen here!

I think its different.
My DH's family are from a southern European country and as a PP said, there is less of a "children's things" vs "adult's things" than there is here. But bad behaviour from children is no more tolerated - if anything, I would say less so. In restaurants (outside of tourist areas anyway) there is seldom a children's menu, or a play area etc. There is no problem bringing children into a restaurant or bar with you, but they aren't going to be treated as anything special. They will be expected to eat the same food as everyone else and to behave themselves. The same with family meals.
I actually find that a much healthier attitude. I can't bear what seems to be the prevailing UK opinion that children have to be fed chicken nuggests and chips and be allowed to run around during meals. And then the same parents complain when they are not welcome everywhere. I think our society is actually becoming too child centric, in a way that isn't particularly helpful. Children are pandered to, but simultaneously limited, because the expectations of their behaviour and abilities are so limited.

Yes. A lot of people in Britain are openly hostile to children and don't actually see them as people.

On a society level, I think the UK could be more family friendly in terms of working arrangements, flexibility etc.

I don't think the UK is anti children. I think there's been an increase in me me me culture, combined with the be mates with your child/my darlings are expressing themselves. There's also a gross misunderstanding of "kids will be kids" by those who have badly behaved children, no manners and can't be arsed.

People, quite rightly, aren't tolerant of rudeness, bad manners and poor / selfish behaviour. That includes children.

I took my elderly parents to a garden centre for lunch. After our food had arrived a couple sat down at a nearby table with a very upset toddler. We listened to the child screaming for the whole of our lunch. It was extremely unpleasant for us and the other diners, no idea why one of the couple couldn't have taken the child outside or whatever (we always did if our lad kicked off).

About a week later DH and I went to a restaurant, we sat down but hadn't yet ordered food. Within minutes a young child started doing that really ear-splitting shrieking, I just couldn't face sitting through another meal listening to a racket. We got up and left.

No doubt the parents would be saying we were "anti-child" and it wouldn't happen in Spain.

Funny thing is my Spanish friend told me it was normal for them to be slapped across the face as children, and was planning on doing the same if she ever had a child, she genuinely couldn't understand why we would frown on it here.

@MAFIL One thing I think is pertinent is that other countries often treat children differently from how you will be treated in a resort or very large tourist area. I have lived abroad and behaviour was accepted from both adults and kids in the tourist area, that would not have been accepted in other places in the country.
And I do wonder when people talk about other cultures if they actually know what they are talking about, or have only been to tourist areas.

There's an enormous dislike of children from the recently retired; I'm sure we've all seen that hotel advert. Then there's the judgey-faced parents whose pfbs are currently behaving better than yours. Many employers regard fathers as beta losers for wanting a family life. The guy I was working for when DD was born actually offered me five nights out a week "so you won't have to listen to that racket". The corollary of that is when we took DD into truckstops she was treated like a princess, because the drivers didn't see their own kids from Sunday night to Friday afternoon.

And I do wonder when people talk about other cultures if they actually know what they are talking about, or have only been to tourist areas.

Absolutely this.

Hmmm I just don't know!

On the one hand I had someone demand my child (he's just turned 3) give up his seat on the bus because he was a child. But on the other, when he had an almighty tantrum in a supermarket when he was just 2, several people came up and offered to help me finish my shopping.
I had someone actually throw food at me once when I was breastfeeding and another time someone bought me a cup of tea.

But then there at people on here who refer to children as 'brats' whenever someone says a child was badly behaved or call them 'little fuckers' to try and be funny.

I genuinely think we have both extremes in abundance.

I think it's more anti parents who are useless and have no idea how to actually parent their children, especially in public. There's a lot of them.
Having to put up with poorly behaved children is annoying.

@NameChange84 - that's exactly what we did with DS. And if he was playing up or screaming one of us would take him outside. There's no excuse for letting children run around a restaurant like it's a soft play area.

I think that it's because a century ago children were very much seen but not heard emulated their parents in that they were seen a mini adults. And whilst it's not as pronounced these days and it's been diluted with every generation I think there's traces of that attitude around still.

Britain is far more ageist against anyone over the age of about 40 as pp make very clear...

I find the British in general way more indulgent towards children than a lot of other nationalities. Any bad behaviour (just look at the threads on here and the mention of "my child is no angel but.." ) is brushed away and excused. it's almost as if we expect children to be badly behaved, surely we should give them more credit than that?

Yeah the waiter might go "bambino bambino" but he's also from a country where thumping kids is normal. Just not yours if they get under his feet. His 6 year old is expected to do 3-4 hours homework a night and can fail their school year. His wife won't have had any free childcare places and there's no family allowance/child tax credits whatever the new name is. And if his child has any kind of learning difficulties, there'll be no one to one or special provision made in schools. The parents will have to sort it privately.

I'd say the UK is one of the most child-centred places to have one.

I think UK parents think everything should revolve around their 'darlings' e.g. tolerate their terrible behaviour, and the rest of us hate them for it.

If UK kids were as well behaved as those in other countries, more people would welcome them.

I don’t have a problem with children. I have a problem with over-indulgent parents who believe the general public should find their children as adorable as they do, regardless of their behaviour.

I grew up elsewhere but am British. Agree with some posters it is not so much anti children as it is treating children v differently to adults.. like.. kids menus.

Also, a Victorian-esque expectation of kids to observe adult decorum but no attention or interest given to them. Takes a village to raise a child and all that. My in laws are the sort who expect my kids to sit through a long multi course adult meal without getting a bit antsy after tiring of colouring, and they are usually pretty well behaved publicly.
We were all once children!!