Do you think Britain has an anti children culture?

[karencantobe]

I see this said a lot on here. So wondering what others think? And if you think yes it does, what do you actually mean by anti children? What would be different?

It’s very anti-children here. No tolerance is shown and you only have to watch some poor sod with a young child enter most restaurants for some adults to just tense up, ready to pounce if they make a noise whilst simultaneously being fine with another table being pissed up at 2pm and swearing and laughing loudly.

China is a wonderfully child orientated place where children are fussed over. It’s so relaxed.

Does anyone remember the thread by a woman who wanted to take her newborn in a sling to an expensive michelin star restaurant at night when the website clearly said no under 18s?

Yes, because people paying babysitters so they can go to a £200pp restaurant want to hear a baby crying.

I have no problem with children in child appropriate settings. Just not in expensive fine dining establishments, spas, bars, etc.

People have certainly become more entitled. See the aforementioned michelin star restaurant thread, also the toddler on a hen do thread, and the woman who felt discriminated against because she couldn't take her 8 month old on a spa day.

Does the hothouse schooling and putting them into online English lessons from the age of about 3, whilst simultaneously feeding them piles of fast food because fat children show you have money form part of that relaxed attitude?
My best friend who has been in China since 1988 says all the above is a harsh reality that she as an expat still finds hard to digest.

The China of the One Child Policy and "The Dying Rooms"?

I taught Chinese children in boarding schools for years. I would NOT say it is a wonderfully child orientated place overall!

I agree that Britain is very ageist. It is the most ageist country I have spent any real time in. It still shocks me sometimes how bad it is here for that.

I've found it's depends on which part of the UK I've lived in.

No, I think we have an anti-entitled parents culture, though. I am sick of people changing nappies in cafes, leaving tables in a horrible state when they have had toddlers eating, letting their children run around restaurants, etc.

None of that is the children's fault.

Having spend many months in Italy, I can tell you, that although, yes, the Italians love children, they still like them to behave. I have been complemented so often on my well behaved children in hotels and restaurants in Italy, at their ability to sit and eat nicely, "not like our badly behaved children, here in Italy".

I think there’s a lot of negativity here in general.

British people don’t seem to like children being children. Middle class in particular seem to be obsessed with getting children to eat with a knife and fork/read/sit silently/whatever as soon as humanly possible.

Does anyone else entertain themselves at the supermarket playing 'match the badly behaved child with the currently absent parent'? It's amazing how often I'm right. . .

I'm not anti-child, but I despair of how on Earth some children could possibly be expected to grow up with good manners, consideration for others, and acceptable public behaviours when their parents clearly don't have these attributes to pass on to their children.

British people don’t seem to like children being children. Middle class in particular seem to be obsessed with getting children to eat with a knife and fork/read/sit silently/whatever as soon as humanly possible.

See, I think the complete opposite!

If anything I think that most children (that I know) now aren't expected very much of at all, and if anything, any activity that includes children entirely revolves around them, rather than adults expecting the kids to fall into line.

To all those who reckon Southern Europeans are better with children than brits, we have a large Italian contingent in the family. At gatherings, the babies and toddlers are indulged, cuddled, carried around etc. All the children over the age of 4 are pretty much left to their own devices unless they misbehave when an adult (any adult in the party) will tell them to behave sharpish. Good manners are expected.

Why do some parents think their children are so bl**dy entitled? Why ask a 3-yr old where they want to sit /what do they want to eat and drink? Who's the adult here! If I'm in a cafe or restaurant and your children are in my face then I will glare at you. They are not the most important person to anyone else but you.

Well I have experienced differently. The kids here are indulged and yes there is hot housing but parents are becoming increasingly worried about that. Remind me how happy children in the U.K. are again...

Speaking of entitled parents, I think grandparents tend to be as bad as parents as well.

I’ve seen so many grandparents letting their grandchildren behave appallingly. (In my town anyway)

My parents were very anti children once we had grown up until they became grandparents. It’s totally ok for their grandchild to scream the place down while having a drink in costa (not that I let them do this but my mum has been known for that) when before to them it wasn’t OK for any child to be in there 🙄

I had something of a head to head with my MIL. Her theory and practice is that adults should get out of the way of the dear wee tots. My theory and practice was that by the time children were old enough to walk without holding my hand, they would have had it drummed into them to get out of the way of people. She thought that was verging on child abuse. . .

No, I'd say the other way.

People bend over backwards to include children at places where it would be far better for both the children involved and the adults in the place.

I've never had an issue with anywhere I've taken children from newborn upwards over 20 years, but that could be because I considered first whether it was appropriate for that child, rather than having the attitude they should be able to go anywhere.

Remind me how happy children in the U.K. are again...

Well I don't know all the children in the UK personally but DS & his friends are all very happy, thank you.

@iklboo that’s great to hear.

This is really interesting thanks.
My own observations are that it is not a case of British children being better or worse behaved. Some children are badly behaved everywhere. But the culture in Britain is to expect far less of children than most countries.
One of the things I see here frequently is that children of x age have not reached the required development stage to be able to do y. In nearly every case I am reminded of children that age who routinely do y in another country.
So I think the expecting far less of children is pretty embedded in British society. And often justified with fake talk of developmental stages or fake brain science.
Parents who don't or are unable to parent their children effectively seem to seize on that wider cultural narrative and use it as an excuse as to why their children could never be expected to do y, and is just being a child.

England especially is in general a far less warm culture than some other cultures. But from reading threads on here most MNers would not like all aspects of that. So yes when my kids were young my mum and other relatives would kiss and hug them and fuss over them. But people are also expected to have family to stay over, to help other family out, and it would be normal for friends and relatives to walk in the house without knocking or asking beforehand if they can come. You can't pick the bit out of a culture you like, and discard the rest. It comes as a parcel.

I think the UK is not always very "inclusive" when it comes to kids. I wouldn't say "anti-children" but just that kids' activities often seem to be kept very separate from adult ones. I have lived in a few EU countries and find that the attitude to kids is a bit more inclusive outside the UK - kids are expected to be a part of the adults' world a lot more. This has its good and bad sides, of course. But it means they tend to be tolerated quite happily at adult parties, restaurants, etc.

We went from being sat outside the pub being brought a bag of crisps and a lemonade once an hour in the 80s to every bloody thing revolving around children. My theory is that my generation (70s and 80s born) were so neglected by our self absorbed parents that we went much too far the other way.
I agree that almost nothing is expected of children now. Being quiet in the cinema over the age of 3? Nope. (Mind you adults can't seem to do that either) Not running and screaming in museums? Nah.
Eat with cutlery? No, years of watching 6/7/8/9 year olds eating lasagne with their hands and wandering off from the table during tea.
I like children but their wants and the desire of parents to have the world revolve around their little family makes lots of experiences that used to be nice a pain in the arse.
So yeah, it's the parents really.

I would say the exact opposite gastropod-adults are expected to be part of kids lives at all times. I can't imagine my dad at softplay or taking us to Giraffe if we were going to get something to eat, for example. Parents seem trail round after their kids from ball pool to swimming lesson to gastropub to coffee shop and won't do anything where their kids might be bored or not like the food. That's how it seems to me anyway. Not that I don't ever want to be around them (the little fuckers) it's just that I like adult spaces too.

Some people seem to expect everyone, including complete strangers, to indulge their children's behaviour. When this doesn't happen it's blamed on the person, not the child.

You only have to read threads on here, it starts from birth, and then "But why can't I use the wheelchair space for my pushchair?" or "Why should my child sit on my knee when a pensioner wants to sit down?"

Absolutely agree @TheCoolerQueen I love seeing well-behaved children in public. What I really dislike is children running amok while their parents pay the no attention.

But you know, if I'm walking along the narrowish pavement o my street at school start & finish time, I am in constant danger of being hit by small children on scooters or bicycles on the pavement, barely (or not) in control, and watched, - but not corrected - by their parents. I find that parents tend to assume that their children have right of way - it's this sort of attitude which causes resentment.