Am I really going to have to fight for 3rd c section?

[Connie222]

Just had my booking appointment and was told that my chances of being granted a 3rd section are almost non existent as the hospital and consultants are pro vbac.

Both my previous sections were elective and I had to fight tooth and nail for them (my preference). I just don’t know if I’ve got the fight in me again (different hospital this time in a different area 200 miles away).

The pregnancy had been awful so far and I can’t take the thought of being made to have a birth against my consent, I’m honestly thinking of terminating.

Well said ahenderson270.

I’m so surprised at these comments! I had 2 natural home births without even gas and air, but I realise it’s a woman’s choice how she brings her child into the world. You’d think this was AIBU

Of course you should have a section.
Stand your ground .

After mud 2nd section, the consultant who operated said I’d be good for one more but that it would have to be a section - but obviously there is no record of this.

They would have written down this advice in your notes, which are kept by the hospital.

VBAC after 2 sections is v different to VBAC after 1 section. I would be v v surprised if the Obstetricians wouldn't offer you an ELCS. Your booking midwife may have been unaware of the distinction. I would find out how you can see an Obstetrician to discuss this.

@ispy123 I've had two sections, I'm well aware of the risks. Your post just confirms to me that you really don't know what you're talking about.

The risks of a VBAC after ONE section were explained to me by the consultant as follows:

"In 1 in 250 VBAC's the scar from the previous section will rupture, often without warning. In 1 in 3 cases of rupture the baby will die."

I wasn't prepared to take that risk.

I'd imagine the risks of rupture are significantly higher after more than one section. The OP has had 2.

Amazing how many people on here think they know more than a consultant just because they've had a baby. I've been for a run - does that make me more "qualified" or knowledgable than Mo Farrah?

Why should the tax payer pay more for your c section for a preference? You chose to get pregnant and were lucky enough to be able to do so (unlike me).

She has had 2 previous c-sections. In most areas of the country, that is considered a medical reason for a 3rd. I've had friends have to fight to be supported in attempting a vaginal birth in the exact same set of circumstances. The inconsistency is wrong. Either my local hospital which doesn't like supporting vaginal birth after 2 sections due to the risks are wrong or hers is. Both are NHS.

If you really care about cost to the NHS, her being forced into attempting a vaginal birth is likely to be the most expensive pathway regardless of whether it works or not. I say that someone who was pushed into attempting a vaginal birth with my first even though I had trauma related reasons as to why it might be a bad idea. It's a decision which cost the NHS an absolute fortune compared to the cost of an elective c-section compounded by the fact that my mental health was so screwed for a good 18 months afterwards I had to give up work so haven't even paid tax for the last 5 years.

It's your right to request one. If they keep refusing your requests to discuss, speak to a patient advocate or the matron etc (there should be someone at your hospital to raise this with). In case it helps, the midwife who did my booking appointment was by far the arsey-est and most incompetent one I encountered, everyone afterwards has been better.

Dinosauratemydaffodils - but your experiences are completely irrelevant to the OP. Every birth is completely different.

@Lifeoverhaul except different consultants will recommend different things. I switched hospitals during my 2nd pregnancy and my new consultant had a completely different outlook and preferences than my previous consultant. Plus sometimes the hospital policies can mean consultants even have to push different pathways on women to what they would personally choose.

Get your notes from the previous birth and find the bit where your consultant said that you need a c-section with a 3rd birth.

Find the NICE guidelines and highlight the bits that apply to you.

Then have a meeting and say that you insist on a c-section.

I'm of the view you should be able to choose the birth you want in any event and the idea that a c-section is "extreme" is bizarre. Recovery from an elective c-section is very straight-forward - an emergency c-section is a different story.

In any other line of medicine the easier option would be favoured. But of course, only women give birth.

Why should the tax payer pay more for your c section for a preference

You could say that about a lot of things. Why should the tax paper pick up the cost of obese people having treatment for high blood pressure. Or skiers breaking their legs. Or smokers with lung cancer.

Most women of childbearing age are fit and healthy and cost the NHS very little otherwise.

Some of these replies are just rude. If you would like a c section that is your choice. I've never been denied one to date.

There are so many ridiculous statements on this thread - OP, you sound robust enough to deal with them but I hope that nobody else reading this thread takes any notice. Every woman has the right to an ELCS. The cost difference is minimal (particularly if you factor in aftercare for a non straightforward vaginal birth which can be significant) and the fact that you want one is medical reasons enough. Plus a lot of these comments seem to suggest that MH reasons are not valid medical reasons which is just bizarre.

OP, you should definitely get your section. You might have to fight for it but I can't imagine a consultant would encourage anything else. Some midwives just have their own agenda.

but your experiences are completely irrelevant to the OP. Every birth is completely different.

Given her posts here and the fact that she states that she is thinking of terminating, I suspect she and I possibly have quite a bit in common so I don't think my experiences are irrelevant. They are definitely relevant to comments about cost. Emergencies cost more than electives. Emergencies with NICU stays, mental health issues which by the sound of it, the OP could be at risk of definitely cost more. Attempting vaginal birth after 2 sections also increases the risk of things going wrong. Then there is the fact that the OP has never laboured before.

I've had 2 emergency sections, am perfectly healthy, had virtually no scar tissue and was advised to opt for an elective with a 3rd baby. I'm a vbac group on facebook and virtually every woman pursuing a vaginal birth after 2 sections has a fight on their hands. So if most hospitals in the UK would just offer an elective without question, why won't this one? Surely that's a question worth asking?

Also in my experience and that of a lot of my friends, "every birth is completely different" is a load of agenda pushing bullshit. Friends who had their first c-section for failure to progress, had their 2nd and 3rd sections for the same thing. Friends who delivered fast and easily with dc1, continued to do so with subsequent babies. I've had 2 giant headed babies get stuck in my pelvis...my labours were virtually identical including labouring in my back with optimally positioned babies. My consultant told me that with the same dad, the births tend to be the same. Everything I've seen, experienced and had friends/family tell me backs that up.

I had two EMCS. Wasn't given an option with my third. Would have been a planned section but DD decided to come early, so I had three EMCS.
When I went into labour, the whisked me straight up to theatre, no option for a trial over labour.

I had one emergency section, a second pregnancy where I decided to opt for elective section (having attended the vbac clinic) and when I got pregnant a third time was told I would have to have a section as, after two sections, the risk of scar rupture was too great.

I would have wanted another section anyway but was literally told that the doctors would not allow a vbac after two sections.

Have the guidelines changed?

Amazed Mummy, Take no notice of Saddler. I'm not saying she hasn't but
' I've 'never seen her add anything helpful or encouraging on her. The words bully online warrior and keyboard come to m mind

OP I had an ELCS but didn't see a consultant until I was over 30 weeks so don't worry about the timing.

It was my thinking that after 2 sections, they probably wouldn't allow a vaginal birth so I'm surprised they've dismissed it. I would demand to see the consultant and then make a complaint if that doesn't get you anywhere. A midwife has no authority to say yes or no.

@Connie222 - I am shocked that you may have to fight for a third c-section! Admittedly it is some time since I was pregnant, but back then, it was the norm for women to be strongly advised to have any subsequent babies by c-section after a section - vbac after section was very much discouraged and was not the norm.

Things were changing - women were fighting for vbac after a single section, and were having vaginal births safely and successfully - but I don't think women were having vbac after more than one section, and I would assume this is because the risk of uterine rupture during labour are higher following two sections than following one - so I am surprised that you are being told that a vbac after two sections will be fine.

I would be very surprised if the consultant refused a third c-section - in my experience the doctors are more cautious than the midwives - in some cases this leads to them discouraging women from options that are perfectly safe (my consultant was horrified that I was planning a home birth with ds2), but in your case, I think their caution would be sensible, and will lead to them agreeing with your decision that a section is the best option for you.

I realise that it is difficult not to worry, especially after the booking visit, but if you can, you should try to put the issue to the back of your mind until you can see the consultant.

I am sorry that you are going through this stress at what should be an exciting and happy time.

Hey @mumsnet do you want to give some of the posts on this thread a read? Maybe your 'guidelines' need updating if you're allowing some of this spiteful shit to stand.

@kirinm - if you think some posts on here are not acceptable, the best thing to do is to report them - click on the 'report' button in the blue bar above each post. MNHQ don't read every post on every thread in real time, and the quickest way for them to see a post that may be problematic is to report it.

Lifeoverhaul amazing how you are so naive you assume that all medical consultants are a) thoroughly up to date on the evidence, b) immune to personal preference and prejudice, and c) immune to pressures within the hospital to get c section stats down for PR purposes.

If you usually go through life accepting anything a medic tells you with blind faith, I would strongly suggest, for your own benefit, that you do your own research if ever you are in the situation of having a serious or chronic condition, or especially if diagnosis is in doubt. Drs are human beings. They don’t always get it right. Some are better than others.

And, of course, there’s the important concept of autonomy, which OP and every other patient should be able to exercise.

@amazedmummy if it's not necessary it shouldn't be an option. If it's for medical reasons then absolutely 100%.

OP, please ignore the mean spirited, spiteful and ill-informed comments you’ve had.

Even leaving aside the issue of your own autonomy, the evidence is firmly in your favour that a c section would be the safest option by far. You will be able to get one, but annoyingly and unacceptably, it appears you may have to fight a little. I would get on to the senior midwife or PALS ASAP and explain how you can’t wait for a decision on this, as it is affecting your mental health, with knock-on effects on the baby. You need to know that they will do the CS asap so would like to see a consultant quickly.

Ultimately, if the consultant refuses, you have a right to be referred to one who will agree, but I cannot see it getting to that given the risk profiles of CS v VBA2C.