11+ nonsense rant

[fklps]

Hi All, my son has already sat exams for four schools in South West London and I, like many other parents, am going through the dreadful wait for results in February.

I find it puzzling that no one ever talks about what an utter nonsense this whole process is or how damaging it can be for a child's self esteem. My son has always been a middle set kid, yet very enthusiastic and self-confident. Not shy at all! I never tutored him, nor pushed him hard during his primary school years as I've always wanted him to be a child. There is enough pressure in adult life to start worrying at 11! Suddenly, we stumble upon these horror numbers: 900 kids or more, competing for an average of 80-100 places at the four schools he is applying for. This is ridiculous! I'm sure all those 900 kids are very special in their own individual ways!

Then one reads the newspapers and encounter all these articles about teenage anxiety, depression, suicide in numbers that are particularly high in British universities. I mean, no wonder!

I live in an area of SW London where state secondary schools are not particularly good. The best one is Catholic and that would not be an option for us. If we really care about children's wellbeing in this country, it is time to start putting pressure on the government to really improve the state secondary system. There are not enough independent schools and the good state school get also massive number of applicants. I'm sorry, but this is not fair on the children. I tend to be a very cheerful person but quite frankly I've felt sick since all this process started in January and I really hope my son gets a place in a nice school where he can continue to grow into a confident and healthy adult.

I’m amazed you “suddenly” came across those statistics and the impact of this nonsense on kids given that tour child has been in the prep system...

Yes, it has been "suddenly" in a way because two of the schools he is applying to didn't use to be highly demanded ones, but this year the number of applicants (as told by the schools themselves) was unusually high. So, not even the "safer" options are safe anymore as clearly the demand has increased.

I don't wish to create a passive aggressive chat here. I just want to find some solace in other mums who may be feeling as insecure as me and who think this is not normal. By 'this' I mean the lack of good state secondary schools in some areas and the low number of independent school options.

You don’t have to force your son to take the 11+. To be honest you sound like a sharp elbowed member of the middle class who’s outraged now they are faced with a situation they can’t buy their way out of and may have to slum it with the great unwashed

You will find very limited sympathy here - most people don’t get a choice of school full stop, with options far worse than what London has to offer. No, it’s not nice to face uncertainty and worry about your child’s future, nor is it nice to see your children in a stressful situation, but you have far more choice than most parents.

And, rather depressingly, there are many areas of the country where dire schools are the norm and have been for years. They will generally be getting thousands of pounds per child per year less than London schools.

Where I grew up, we all took the 12+, it wasn’t a big thing.

But it was an area which just happens to have a lot of grammar schools - so it wasn’t just the middle class, tutored to death kids that took it (not saying this is you OP), so the parents and kids weren’t really hung up on it so much. It’s just what we all did.

And I passed, went to a grammar and then failed miserably in life, didn’t even do A levels so it’s not the be all and end all!

I live in an area with selective grammars and also think it's damaging in many ways. My DD attends one of them and I hope her academic results are worth it.
It's not great for the self esteem of many of the kids who go through this and as a parent I had a lot of conflict about what was the best thing to do.
I would have preferred not to go through the 11+ mill too.

It is nonsense that children can now ‘fail’ at primary age. It’s not just the 11+ but Sats, phonics tests, times tables tests etc.
I know there are fantastic schools who manage not to put pressure on children taking these tests, as there are parents who manage the stresses of the 11+ but mental health has taken a back seat to league tables and performance related pay for teachers.
I’m not sure it’s a broken system, but I’m also not entirely sure it’s fit for purpose either.

Op I’m surprised you’re putting your 2 issues together

1. Not enough private schools
2. State schools not good enough.

Most people don’t have the option of private schools as financially they can’t afford it (or are against it in principle). You’re not going to get my sympathy bemoaning the lack of private schools I’m afraid. I could maybe get on board with point 2, but not 1!

London state secondary pupils do better than those outside London. So even if your son doesn't get a place, he can still prosper purely for attending a London state school.

Grammars are very much the Emporer's New Clothes. A lot of them cruise along on former glory. They are good at getting children focused on GCSEs but they can be quite harsh environments. If you're robust, sporty, ambitious, clever and like to stick to rules then you'll be fine. A lot of children don't fit this profile and they are the ones who struggle. It's hard to be an individual at a grammar school I have found. Maybe look at other options as grammars really are not worth the stress you are currently going through.

it is time to start putting pressure on the government to really improve the state secondary system

There's been pressure to improve it for the past 70 years or more. Trouble is, no one can agree on how to do it. Hence why it's in a state of constant change. There's also far too many vested interests. The more it changes, the more it stays the same. Some aspects change every few years it seems - other aspects never change at all. I'd liken it to re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic. Each change causes huge amounts of money and huge disruption but benefits are seldom seen.

Personally, I think a massive lost opportunity was when Comps were introduced and grammars/sec mods scrapped. The mistake was allowing "faith" schools to continue which massively increased in popularity as they were often successful in areas near failing comps. The politicians of the time should have scrapped faith schools with the same gusto that they scrapped grammars. They're selection by faith rather than academic ability, which is just as bad.

Of course, during Blair's period, we had "technical" schools opening up to provide a less academic and more "hands on" schooling, but they've not been as popular as people claimed they would and some have already closed down due to lack of pupils. It seems parents are happy for other kids to have a less academic education but feel their own kids are too good for it!

It's really yet another case for scrapping the lot and starting a fresh with a blank sheet of paper. Personally, I'd adopt the approach of some other countries and change the primary/secondary divide. I'd have kids stay in junior school for longer and then move up to secondary school in year 9 ready for formal exam studying etc. Now kids are at school for more years, year 7 is too early to move up and secondary schools tend to be treading water in years 7 and 8 anyway.

Most of us are perfectly happy with a non-selective state school. You're in a SW London bubble. The rest of the country doesn't care.

I'm in my 30's and I distinctly remember my parents telling me I have to pass my 11+. As if it was non negotiable.
Just let it go op sounds like you hadn't invested too much into the process anyway so sit back and relax now!

I really appreciate everyone's comments and the willingness to open a respectful debate.

@MoltoAgitato, you are right, I am middle class and seem to be now facing a situation I can't buy myself out. Although, of course I could just burst the bubble and send my children to whatever local school is available and face the same reality as 92% of the country.

My story is more complicated than it seems because my plan was always to send my children to the Catholic local state school. The problem is that, even though I am Catholic, I hated the idea of having to earn my parish priest sympathy to get a recommendation for the school, showing up every Sunday and waving at him and getting involved with the church just to get a spot in the highly demanded school. I started doing it but felt very hypocritical and gave up. The Catholic secondary state school where I live is fantastic and it would've been great if that was an option but as @Kazzyhoward very well states, it is also selective, only on a faith basis.

I don't know, I grew up in a different country and went to the same school all my childhood until I went to University. We were never put in sets and were never put under pressure to compare ourselves to our peers. I was a good pupil but just because I did my homework and studied for my exams, which is just as much as every child should be pushed to do. I then went to university in the US and have done well.

I don't understand why governments have been so inconsistent in their approach to state education. The fact they keep changing it every time a new PM comes in, has done a lot of damage. It's not so complicated, you know? Also, the concept of "bright" against "not so bright" children should be completely scrapped from politicians and parents vocabulary and schools should only aim to hire good teachers, who can help each child achieve their best. And I don't want to open a social class debate (I don't particularly fancy any political party at the moment so I'm not trying to push any agenda), but I think the fact that those in charge come generally from privilege backgrounds has had an impact on their negligence towards state education.

Even if I ended up sending my kids to our state secondary, I would keep arguing for the same: stop encouraging such fierce competition in young children, eliminate the grammar, academy, technical, 'sets' or whatever discriminating approach and trust the children a little bit more.
No matter whether you are in the independent or state sector, being "middle set" seems to always put children in a disadvantage. Grammar was never an option for us and the secondary state schools also segregates them in sets!

@shinysprinkles, love it! I may just as well do that!
Gosh it feels good to have unloaded all this shit. Thanks for listening and again for being respectful. Social media can be awful but everyone's been really nice.

Agree that middle set children are not well served at state schools. My DD is one. We ended up sending her to a private school which was not super selective with a fairly wide ability range.

She absolutely thrived as the school catered really well for the middle set students. She had extra one to one support when needed, at no extra cost, and the small class sizes meant she got the extra attention she needed, eg her maths class had 8 students.

But of course we were fortunate to be able to afford the fees. State schools should be able to provide the same level of support but of course it's massively underfunded. Very unfair.

I really can't muster any sympathy for people choosing to put their children into private education. If the middle classes of SW London put their children into state schools, the schools would be better. The fact that you treat them as dumping grounds becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Not sure how it would have improved our local state school if DD had gone there? She wouldn't have got the extra support and class sizes would have been at least 25+. All that would have happened was she would have struggled and not done as well as she did. How does that help her or the school?

But as long as people who can afford to send their children private do that, the state schools won't improve. And there is an absolutely horrible two tier system in London which has developed as a result of that attitude.

It's much worse there than anywhere else in the country. It's like going back to Victorian times

But how would state schools improve if all private school parents sent their children there?

The main issue with state schools is underfunding and teachers leaving in droves.

These issues can and should be improved by the government irrespective of which pupils go there. More funding would pay for one to one support where needed, smaller class sizes etc.

However I'm not sure what can be done about disinterested, uninvolved, unsupportive parents, or where parents are working long hours etc and simply do not have the capacity to be more involved in their child's education. These factors all have an impact on a child and their school.

It is in a way like going back to Victorian times, or perhaps we have never overcome certain flaws as a society altogether. In any case, parents will always try as best as their means allow to improve their children's chances of success in life. The fact that many who can migrate to the private sector do so when they feel their kids are not being set for success in the state sector is a fault of the system not the parents! Paying private fees is still a massive sacrifice for some families. It is a very personal choice for those who can afford it and its thus tricky to judge it just like that.

In any case, what I have discovered now, is that the 11+ system can potentially cause much harm to a mid set child too. Many factors play into the success of them being admitted into a grammar school or reputed private secondary, such as maturity, age, parents' willingness or capacity to tutor them, high competition even for the "bright" ones, etc.

It is all about funding like @dimsum123 says. The demand is too high for the grammars, the few good comprehensive secondaries and now even for the really expensive independent option. This has a lot to say about the government's disregard for investment in education, which should be the top priority of every healthy, first world society.

Some parents choose not to send their children to private schools even if they can afford to do so because they fundamentally disagree with it.

Again, this is more common outside London. I rest my case that you are building a two tier victorian society in London. The private school sector is an appalling indictment of modern Britain. As you said, your child is pretty ordinary but they are likely to do better in life because they had educational advantages their parents paid for.

That's not a society I want to be a part of.

@Clymene, yes it is very unfair. It's up to the government to level the playing field. But we keep voting for a government who wants to do just the opposite.

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