11+ nonsense rant

[fklps]

Hi All, my son has already sat exams for four schools in South West London and I, like many other parents, am going through the dreadful wait for results in February.

I find it puzzling that no one ever talks about what an utter nonsense this whole process is or how damaging it can be for a child's self esteem. My son has always been a middle set kid, yet very enthusiastic and self-confident. Not shy at all! I never tutored him, nor pushed him hard during his primary school years as I've always wanted him to be a child. There is enough pressure in adult life to start worrying at 11! Suddenly, we stumble upon these horror numbers: 900 kids or more, competing for an average of 80-100 places at the four schools he is applying for. This is ridiculous! I'm sure all those 900 kids are very special in their own individual ways!

Then one reads the newspapers and encounter all these articles about teenage anxiety, depression, suicide in numbers that are particularly high in British universities. I mean, no wonder!

I live in an area of SW London where state secondary schools are not particularly good. The best one is Catholic and that would not be an option for us. If we really care about children's wellbeing in this country, it is time to start putting pressure on the government to really improve the state secondary system. There are not enough independent schools and the good state school get also massive number of applicants. I'm sorry, but this is not fair on the children. I tend to be a very cheerful person but quite frankly I've felt sick since all this process started in January and I really hope my son gets a place in a nice school where he can continue to grow into a confident and healthy adult.

Have you not been in London long? If you're in SW London, I'm surprised that you've not heard of 3+, 4+, 7+, 8+, 10+...

I sat my 11+ in 1989. I applied to the local state and took 4 schools The chance of success back then was still 5:1 and tutoring was normal for the top schools

Personally I moved house so that when my kids applied for secondary, I'd be happy with the local state.

Private schools get their business based on the destination of their leavers so they want the kids who are likely to bring in more future business.

In your shoes I would have stuck it out with the church attendance to avoid entrance exams and the SW London hysteria. Have you considered the fact that using a private school that's not 3-18 means that you are contributing to the crazy system ?

Despite my earlier comment, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments. Competition is fierce from a very young age and there is so much focus on achievement. I appreciate your post as it reflects my sentiments too. My DS is younger than yours but I’m looking for a route out but don’t see one unless I leave London.

I’m guessing you are talking about Emanuel, which was seen as a gentler school? I heard competition become ridiculous there.

It's up to the government to level the playing field. But we keep voting for a government who wants to do just the opposite.

It was just the same under 13 years of Blair and Brown.

Most of us are perfectly happy with a non-selective state school. You're in a SW London bubble. The rest of the country doesn't care.

Depends on the area and how crap the local comps are doesn't it??

In my run down Northern seaside town, there are two failing crap comps. I went to one 40 years ago and it was a failing crap comp back then too. Both are grossly under-subscribed because parents do everything they can to send their kids elsewhere. This is a poor Northern town, so there's no private school option (because parents can't afford it anyway). So the "parents who care" do whatever they can to avoid the crap comps. Some pretend to be religious and attend church to get enough points to go to either the Catholic or CofE faith schools in the next city. Others send their kids by bus across the county border to a more successful state comp 10 miles away (There are 11 school buses crossing the border, so that's about 500 pupils do do it).

So, yes, even outside London, parents do what they can to avoid crap comps, even where they don't have private options.

Like I say, I went to one of the crap comps myself 40+ years ago, and despite a succession of different heads, being converted into a specialist sports college (Under Blair), and numerous other initiatives, it's still a crap comp.

He's a "middle set kid".
That's why children are so depressed and suicidal- pushy parents!
Find a school that meets his needs and he'll flourish.

OP YOU have put your child under this pressure. DS started at a straight through prep in Reception, he sat one single entrance exam for his Senior school on a Friday and we were told the following Tuesday he had a place.

There was no drama, no extra tuition, other than the work his Junior school did with all the Y6's to prepare them to sit their own entrance exam. Every child in the Junior's has been offered a place in the Senior.

We deliberately chose an good, all through school at 4+ specifically to avoid putting him (and Y3 DD) through the level of pressure your DC has been subjected to.

Well, I would hope that all teachers would want to encourage all children to be the best they can be. Certainly, I did and so did my colleagues.

I passed the 11+ many years ago. There was no tutoring, no extra homework, the usual class lessons. We went to a local secondary school on a Saturday morning, did the test and waited for the results. Everyone did it and I don’t recall pressure.

The education system in this country has reached a critical point and that is the fault of successive governments, of all colours. The box ticking exercises that are required are death to innovation, creativity and enthusiasm.

Perhaps we should adopt a system I saw in Holland. A very large school where all the students could mix together, but there were different paths for them. One group was regarded as very able and taught in English for half the curriculum, one was ‘mainstream’ academic and a third focused on the practical, with fantastically resourced areas for electricians, plumbers, builders. There was an appreciation of the skills and talents of different groups.

@Foxyloxy1plus1 Maybe that is why children in Holland rank so high in happiness indexes.

And may I express my respects to all teachers who indeed, despite the struggles caused by bureaucracy, etc, try to get the best out of every child. I believe teachers should belong to the top paid professions in any country in the world.

The system you describe above (in Holland) sounds very reasonable but for some reason, the insistence in England to divide the kids in ability sets, defined by them as 'top', 'middle' and 'lower' has become alienating for the children. My youngest son who is 8, the youngest in his class in Year 4, has told me on different occasions he is not 'very smart' because he is 'lower set.' I insist this 'lower set' thing doesn't mean anything and has nothing to do with success and by all means intelligence, yet he believes it does. How do you fight against this is my question? And may I insist, there is no distinction between the public or private system on this particular matter.

The initial point of my discussion, and perhaps it was a mistake to reduce it just to 11+, is that the top state secondary schools and increasingly more independent secondary schools in London are limiting acceptance to those considered "bright" and "top set." There is constant labelling on this system.

The (dick)Head of my DS’s prep describes my ds in Y2 as “not setting the academic world on fire” (subsequently diagnosed with slow processing). When he aced his assessments in Y4, his teacher said he had to check he didn’t copy from another child. Fucking cruel and a slap in the face to all his hard work. Despite achieving 90% in his maths test, his report said he finds most maths concepts difficult . For some odd reason, they think he should firmly remain in the “low ability” camp. I am looking to move him.

Certainly @Usernamealreadyexists you can't keep DS in a school that has already given up on him, wanting to impose such a negative labelling on him. Appalling and frustrating, so sorry you've had to go through this.

You’ve chosen to join the SW London rat race so not sure why you’re whinging? And how was your son going to feel confident on exam days if he hadn’t been tutored by yourself or a third party so basically went to the exams unprepared?

The solution is pretty simple really. If you aren’t happy with the state options or the fierce competition for indies, just move to a different area (in London or the commuter belt).

Just to say not all DCs feel pressurised by the 11+ process. DS was at a state primary. We had a tutor as his school wasn't preparing him for the entrance tests and he enjoyed doing the extra work because he was challenged and stretched. At primary school he was easily top of the class without trying at all.

So in our case the state primary didnt cater for bright DS nor middle set DD.

We're in SW London too, where there are literally no decent state schools, other than faith schools.

We are very fortunate to be able to send both DCs private, but every single child should be able to go to a good school and achieve their potential. It benefits the child obviously, but also the whole country and society.

OP - I agree 11 plus is ridiculous and pointless too. The kids forget a lot of the stuff they learn quickly too and so it isn't even learning for learning's sake. However, I am pretty sure that even if you don't get a place first time round, there will always be a place at a good independent school eventually. There is tons of movement in the independent sector! The current craze you describe might also just be too many people panicking applying to too many schools. Plus I personally know plenty of people who had lots of choice (aka different independents, superselective grammars and outstanding comp) who got themselves in a frenzy over having too much choice! So best thing is to relax and believe in your child and their innate abilities. A school cannot actually add or change that much in a child - most of the European countries know that.

@edwinbear what would you have done if you couldn't afford the "all through prep" and the local comp was shit?

@pettswoodmumof3, I get what you're saying but I disagree. DDs school did help her achieve results she would absolutely not have achieved at state secondary. She had so much extra one to one support because she has dyslexia and slow processing.

At her state primary they didn't even pick up on her dyslexia. At the private school every child was screened in years 7 and 8 for any extra learning needs and then given any extra support needed. There is no way she would have got that in an underfunded state school.

Her school didn't change her innate ability, she's actually very bright, but her needs were not met in the state primary and so she didn't achieve anywhere near what she was actually capable of.

Of course, during Blair's period, we had "technical" schools opening up to provide a less academic and more "hands on" schooling, but they've not been as popular as people claimed they would and some have already closed down due to lack of pupils

That wasn’t Blair, that was Gove. They’ve opened and closed since 2010.

I’m a bit surprised at this talk about London being a two tier Victorian system - London state schools massively outperform the rest of the country.

@JoJoSM2

First, my son hasn't felt insecure at all. He is a very confident child and my concern in precisely that this ridiculous race for a place in a school could affect his self-esteem.

Second, regarding prepping, I think the opposite of you. Are tests really measuring how much a kid is privately tutored or tutored by their parents? I never had tutoring from anyone as a child. Hard work and effort should be enough.

Third, moving is not easy and why do I have to accommodate my residence to the schools? I live where I live because it is a convent location to go to work and we don't want to pay stamp duty again.

@noblegiraffe We're not talking about school rankings and results in contrast with the rest of the country although that of course is also concerning. The point is the ridiculous pressure kids are put through in London if they are to apply to a good local state or independent school.

Second, regarding prepping, I think the opposite of you.

Well, I’ve never rocked up to an exam or a job interview unprepared. I find your strategy of no preparation and just turning up interesting and will surprised if it works.

why do I have to accommodate my residence to the schools?

Well, if accommodating your children’s schooling needs is too much to ask, then you just need to work with the local options.

The point is the ridiculous pressure kids are put through in London if they are to apply to a good local state or independent school.

There’s 0 pressure in applying to local comps. You just need to live close enough.

After discussing this issue with you over two days, this is my conclusion.

1. At the bottom of my heart, I don't care much what secondary school my son goes to as long as it is a good school. By good I mean, a school that will help him thrive in the subjects areas where he is strong and will prepare him well enough to apply to good universities.

1. I am very honest with my son, have always been. He knows I find the "set" system absolutely ridiculous and he also knows that I'm not like other parents who believe certain independent schools are the secret to a successful life.

1. The message I am trying to root into my children's brains is all about the importance of EFFORT. This is what I was taught as a child by my very accomplished father. The people with best grades not always result in the most successful adults. As much as we have to aim for the best grades, what really matters is independent effort.

My concern in this London education system is that effort is not always rewarded. Only the kids with the best grades are given the best opportunities. It feels like the others have to fend for themselves.

In countries like the United States where social mobility is a reality, effort tends to be rewarded and they are also very good at spotting talent. If a kid doesn't have the grades but is promising in sports for example, doors will certainly open for them.

My son does not excel in English but is good at maths. He is very curious and loves music. His most beautiful attribute is his enthusiasm and that is the one thing I want to protect like a lioness. I hope this stupid labelling he has endured as "middle set" child all his primary school life NEVER takes root in his brain. I hope whatever secondary school he goes to and the society in which he will become a man rewards his enthusiasm and his effort so he learns the lesson of meritocracy from early because meritocracy has to be the most powerful tool any healthy society should promote for the wellbeing of all citizens.

@JoJoSM2 His school preps them. It is an independent school. I am 100% against paying extra fees and making my children sit in the afternoon after a whole day of school to practice things he won't remember in a year's time, just to get into a school. I am naive, I know, but hoping to have a normal life for my kids is also healthy.

OP I'm not going to get involved in the politics. Having observed the SW London system I would move, do anything possible to get out of this system. It is hideous.

The point is the ridiculous pressure kids are put through in London if they are to apply to a good local state

I don’t live in London. What pressure are kids put through in London to apply to a good local state school?

I never had tutoring from anyone as a child. Hard work and effort should be enough.

They would be- if he were sitting the papers 40 years ago! Time has moved on, and the abysmal state of London schools 20 years ago has resulted in the 'system' they have now.
@Noblegiraffe is correct- London state schools are far, far better than those in the rest of England, primarily because they have had money poured into them to narrow the gap. Of course, now it's gone too far the other way, and schools everywhere else are often dire...

Noble- sheer numbers mean unless you live virtually in the playground, you aren't getting a place. Multiply that across the borough, suddenly children are getting offers from two or three boroughs away.

I find it puzzling that no one ever talks about what an utter nonsense this whole process is or how damaging it can be for a child's self esteem. My son has always been a middle set kid, yet very enthusiastic and self-confident. Not shy at all! I never tutored him, nor pushed him hard during his primary school years as I've always wanted him to be a child. There is enough pressure in adult life to start worrying at 11!

Yes, there is. So why are you forcing your child through a totally unnecessary load of additional pressure?