"Corbyn is clueless about the working class" Janice Turner in The Times today.

[Trewser]

I found this article powerful and quite moving. Summed up a lot of what I instinctively felt about Labour but wasn't clever enough to express. Thanks Janice. I'm not sure how to share...

article

I agree with a lot of the article. Sadly I think the north will soon regret the brexit deal that’s been negotiated and they will regret having a Tory majority.

What people can feel patriotic about -

About having freedom and opportunities in this country that is unthinkable in many countries

That the right wing parties are not sitting in the Houses of Parliament (that’s not to deny there isn’t racism within our society)

Our influence all over the world in the arts

That we lead the way in some areas of medicine and science

That all children will receive an education

NHS

A welfare system

BBC

Of course there is room for improvement especially for the vulnerable after years of austerity and parts of our history are shameful but should that prevent us from being proud and glad to be living in a country that is a far better place to live that the majority of countries in this world for women, children and the vulnerable

Being patriotic means supporting your country - something I suspect the metropolitan Corbynites might sneer at - but something that Boris Johnson mentioned in his first speech after being re-elected.

I personally don't have any strong opinions on why Labour lost and I'm neither a Labour nor Conservative voter but I thought the Paul Embery piece was an interesting analysis.

Supporting your country at what though? Sport, Eurovision whatever, sure. But just "supporting your country" doesn't really mean anything.

Supporting values that believe in every child has the right to an education

Everyone had the right to healthcare

That women are equal to men in law (and we have had two female PM)

Not every country upholds these rights because they are not considered a right

Has the right to healthcare ....

Not had

Though I’m sure that shall be pointed out it’s not for much longer

The last one isn't true I am afraid.

That we haven’t had two female PM’s

Or women are not equal to men in law ?

That's not what Paul Embery is saying. What do you think "support the reassertion of the role of the family at the centre of society" means?

I agree with a lot of the article. Sadly I think the north will soon regret the brexit deal that’s been negotiated and they will regret having a Tory majority.

Agreed. I think they've got the wrong baddie, I really do, the EU isn't what they think it is.

The shockingly shit behaviour of momentum, with its identity politics cancel culture and ridiculous candidates like sophie willson, needs to be stopped. I will rejoin the party I think.

Oh and for those who think that JT shouldn't speak because the Times is a Murdoch rag, she's a working class northerner whose family worked in the pits.

Friend in ultra expensive part of London stuffed with the famous and well rewarded "I can't believe it, it was a sea of red here, what happened?" Meanwhile, shoals of voters, including the working poor, food bank users, UC claimants etc, in the northern areas laid waste by Thatcher and subsequently ignored, turned the sea blue. This is a complete reverse polarity. Labour has forgotten what it's for and deserves what's happened to it. Utterly disgraceful performance and outcome.

Supporting your country means being proud of it in the way that Corbyn wasn't.

Just read the article, thanks for link. She's absolutely right.

Women are not equal to men in law. We can pretend that's true if we want. Look at the low rates of conviction for rape, look at the terrifyingly short sentences for those who kill by 'rough sex'. Under no circumstances would I rely on the law in a case of rape.

What do you think "support the reassertion of the role of the family at the centre of society" means?
Swedish it could mean that families should be seen to take responsibility for the behaviour of their children, or that they get a say in the care of their elderly, or that fathers are made to pay child support for the children they created.
Or it could mean that the structure of social care is destroyed even more and even more women are trying to care for disabled children and mothers with alzheimers alone because the state won't fucking help them...
Could mean anything couldn't it?

It should’ve been predictable by labour - the tories thought they’d crack the labour heartlands in 2017, but they didn’t like May much more than Corbyn. The tories did a better job of choosing Boris this time round.

You may have something there on patriotism, there isn’t a british foreign policy decision Corbyn has backed that i can recall, and whilst that may play well amongst some student politics types...

Re patriotism, it isn't about flying St George's Cross and cheering for the Queen, which I agree is not a big thing in people's lives. It's about not wanting to be told you are shit. Identity politics doesn't make the white British working class feel good about themselves.
I think one reason why Brexit was popular was because it's an assertion of confidence in the country - 'we can do ok without Europe because we're not a hopeless basket case who needs other countries to back us up! We're capable! We're a GREAT country, damn it' - sort of thing.
If Boris retains his popularity it will be because he is good at getting people to feel good about themselves.
I have given a lot of thought to the people who said they were voting for Boris because he is funny. My nephew has been canvassing for Labour and he heard it repeatedly on the doorstep and I overheard some people in a coffeeshop say it...at the end of a pretty well informed rant about politics! On the face of it it's an appallingly stupid reason to vote for someone.
I wonder, though, if it's in part just another way to express the fact that Corbyn makes you feel bad about yourself and Boris makes you feel good.

I wonder, though, if it's in part just another way to express the fact that Corbyn makes you feel bad about yourself and Boris makes you feel good yes I'd say that's a fair assessment

I had a heated debate with a labour canvasser, it was depressing. I would love to have heard some of the other debates she had on doorsteps. I’m in a deprived ex mill town and the conservatives won and their vote went up. The labour candidate here is dire. When DS was at school she campaigned round a lot of the schools, I missed her when she was at DS school but people did not like her and found her patronising. I would imagine she possibly talks down to people.

I wonder, though, if it's in part just another way to express the fact that Corbyn makes you feel bad about yourself and Boris makes you feel good.

I think there is something in that. There was an interview with the new Wakefield MP on Channel 4 news. I'm slightly suspicious that there is some carefully-crafted populist rhetoric in what he says, but it's clear that he thinks he was elected because Labour told people they were stupid and racist. Ironically, those "racist" voters went on to kick out their white Labour MP for a Muslim tory:

www.channel4.com/news/islington-remainers-branded-leave-voters-stupid-uneducated-racist-or-wrong-says-tory-mp-imran-ahmad-khan

I wonder, though, if it's in part just another way to express the fact that Corbyn makes you feel bad about yourself and Boris makes you feel good.

I completely feel on an emotional level why people up here voted for the Tories, even though logically it seems to go against their best interests, but I've never found a good way to explain it to other people. You've hit the nail on the head, I think.

Yes and the snp appeal to a similar instinct, Scotland can do it, etc a positive message. Corbyn ran a very negative campaign, anti business, anti the top 5 percent, lots of othering of groups they don’t consider the many.

Yes and the giveaways that they said would save families 6k a year. More or Less worked it out and actually it would have benefited about 100 families.

Everything was piecemeal and complicated

An excellent article. Whilst it will probably take a move nearer to the center for Labour, there are still many Labour members who are convinced that Corbyn/Momentum policies should remain and so nothing's going to change. I hope they are happy being in opposition for the foreseeable future.

Am I supposed to take this seriously because the author was born in Wakefield, so is A Northerner? University of Sussex, journalist in London for entire working life, married to someone high up in the Times who is himself the son of a former Guardian editor. Metropolitan elite, blah blah, fucking blah.