Victim blaming

[shouldhavecalleditoatabix]

Really interesting conversation last night on works do. Apparently a police force recently'decorated' a Christmas tree in a local church (think the kind of display where lots of charities and groups decorate a small tree) and they chose a 'woman's safety' type theme. My colleague was saying it's caused uproar because the decorations had advice for women like 'don't walk home alone' and 'don't drink too much leaving yourself vulnerable'. Bear in mind I haven't seen the tree so this is me retelling the story. My colleague was saying that women's groups were accusing the force of victim blaming and it had prompted a discussion between his wife and DD. They were all saying they understood but that it is still sound advice because of course it is still an unsafe world out there etc. I said to him, of course they are precautions a lot of women still have to take however, why are we still placing the onus on women to 'protect themselves'? Why did they not have decorations aimed at toxic male behaviour? Why not things about understanding consent? Calling out friends that are behaving that way? Reporting concerns about other males. It was like a light bulb in his mind. He saw it there and then. That's victim blaming says I. We need to turn the conversation round and put the responsibility back on the aggressors.

I found it really interesting that we are still as a society not getting that message home. It looked like it never occurred to him there was an alternative message we could be giving. Pushing men to challenge their own behaviour because in his mind it was just safety advice for women.

There have been posters in previous years from the police.

Such gems such as choosing gifts or birthday fists

Dont walk home alone?.how does the last person in the walking group get home then?

Get a taxi and get assaulted? Why didnt she walk

Walk and assaulted? Why didnt she get a taxi?

1/3rds if rapes happen when drunk? Pass me the vodka then mate cos 2/3 happen.when sober?

Yes focus always on our behaviour.. God forbid we go out or drink.or have jobs that finish late.

Focus on the male predatory behaviour.

Why did they not have decorations aimed at toxic male behaviour?

Because it was a tree aimed at a 'woman's safety' type theme.

There is a difference between being aware and staying as safe as possible, which the tree was about, and male behaviour, which the tree wasn't about.

Yeah that seems a bit of a stupid idea.

Well staying safe would also include female only spaces surely?

Police are against that

Also, it's about time that people realised that advice is sensible for both males and females.

Males are not somehow inviolate. They get raped and assaulted too. And murdered. And are also more likely to rape, assault, and murder if they drink too much or do drugs. . .

No one seems to ask the men what they were wearing though or what they were doing out that late

Women are more than aware of the risks of being female in public, and it has done precisely the sum of fuck all in reducing unwanted attention, attacks and rape.

Even being a sober female in a public place surrounded by hundreds of people doesn't prevent persistent men from continuing to pester women who have more than made it clear the attention isnt wanted. It doesn't stop men touching you, groping you and 'c'mon love, dont be like that' all over you.

Enough already. WE ALREADY FOLLOW THE ADVICE.

I just don't "get" the problem.

When the police are having a media campaign about house burglaries, it's all about locking your doors and windows, leaving lights on, etc. That's not victim blaming, it's common sense. Would anyone seriously think that a police media campaign aimed at burglars asking them not to burgle would have any impact?

I can just about understand messages re "no means no" etc., to the (few) kind of men who may have predatory tendencies and could be persuaded to behave better if they're given strong signals that their behaviour is wrong (the few who may think that "pushing things" is acceptable), but it's not going to work for serial rapists is it - they're not going to stop raping women just because they've seen a bauble saying it's not right.

It needs a "two prong" attack. Sorry, but women do need to take steps to protect themselves because there are criminals/rapists/murderers out there. But at the same time, we do need to send strong messages to the "middle" of the road kind of blokes who think it's acceptable to push things too far but wouldn't actually/intentionally rape/kill someone. It's not one or the other, it's both, because whatever strong message you send out to the type of bloke who WILL moderate his behaviour, there'll still be blokes out there who are intent on rape/murder and no amount of media campaigning will stop them - women need to protect themselves from that hard core of criminal.

mbosnz

Indeed. Where are all the advisory posters telling men to watch what they drink to prevent them become skeevy sex pests? Wheres the advice to say dont put your hands on a womans body, even if you 'dont mean anything by it', and so on?

That’s a really odd theme for Christmas decorations.

Did this get reported in the news? I’d be interested to see it.

From what was written I'd say, as has already been said, reasonable advice for anyone of either sex. Perhaps its best if police don't give advice to women in case it offends.

Watching some of the police fly-on-the-wall type programs it often looks like women are more at risk from each other after going out for a few drinks. Men would be best staying clear of drunken women as when the police turn up any men trying to stop the fight get arrested and the women told to behave and go home.

When the police are having a media campaign about house burglaries, it's all about locking your doors and windows, leaving lights on, etc. That's not victim blaming, it's common sense

Yes, securing your property will stop a burglar from burglary.

Not drinking too much wont stop a rapist from raping you.

See the difference?

Me and my friend walked home together and were beaten up by 4 men. Its terrible 'advice' because its completely meaningless and doesn't address the issue.

I knew this would be an interesting topic for mn. I can see both sides really. On the one hand it is aimed at helping women stay safe. On the other hand, as a society all this 'safety' advice isn't helping or reducing the problem. So perhaps a shift in how we deal with this is needed?

To answer some questions, I don't know where the tree is but it's not unusual in the more rural towns and villages for local police to decorate a tree along with other local groups/charities. Police will often decorate with local issues in mind.

As for the old 'men get raped too' well yes but they are still raped by men because a woman cannot legally rape a man. In addition, as op said, men ever get asked what they were wearing or why they were alone. This isn't an argument about male victims. It's more a conversation around vulnerable females being attacked/assaulted/raped and if there are other ways in which that can be addressed.

I'm conflicted on this. Police do also say similar with regards to burglaries, car break ins and the like. Lock up when you leave, don't leave valuables on show etc. Prevention is better than cure attitude, and don't make things easy for opportunists.

However, the attitude towards women always seems to me that they put themselves in vulnerable positions. Walking home alone at night/getting drunk/not using licensed taxis etc. If a man is mugged no one questions why he was there or the state he was in. Women's actions get analysed and criticised. I've been guilty of thoughts like this myself watching things like crime watch, and I've done my fair share of drunken walks home!

There was a thread a while ago about things women would do if all men had a curfew of something like 9pm. Replies were reasonably dull; go for a run in the dark, take a long late night walk alone, be out and not have to clutch my keys ready to use as a weapon, being able to go for a drink or three without having to keep a constant eye on the glass, any number of things that women habitually avoid doing yet men don't even have to think about. We are conditioned to police our behaviours to keep ourselves safe, and things like what the police have done here feed into that.

Pp not op

Yes, securing your property will stop a burglar from burglary.

Not drinking too much wont stop a rapist from raping you.

See the difference?

It can though. Imagine a scenario where one woman is sober and another passed out on the floor. Who do you suppose is at the most risk?

Yes women get raped because of rapists, but in the same way I wear my seatbelt when I get in my car, I keep my wits about me when I am out drinking.

There is an element of risk in our lives across the board, men are a risk. Suggesting women do everything they can to protect themselves isn't a slight against anyone. It's good solid advice.

There is no way to protect ourselves.

Most rapists and abusers arent men in dark allies. That's what peope who dont want to admit their grandpa john who touches waitresses or their son who thinks it's funny to joke about roofies with their mates say are actually abusers or potential abusers.

Unless we never marry, never have a boy friend or never ever answer the door or take the bins out or pop next door to ask to borrow some flour or accept a lift home from respectable suited and booted Gary from work, and basically withdraw from.society completely, then we will be blamed for basically vagina-ing about outside the house .

you never see advice like 'don't drink too much, men, as it leaves you vulnerable to rape' or 'don't drink too much, men, as it leaves you vulnerable to women who just want someone to impregnate them' or 'don't drink too much, men, as it leaves you vulnerable to pub fights and violent attacks against you' or 'don't drink too much, men, as it leaves you vulnerable to being arrested for rape after a night you barely remember' or 'don't drink too much, men, as you might fail to pick up on signals like ''no'' or ''stop'' from a woman'.

There is an element of risk in our lives across the board, men are a risk. Suggesting women do everything they can to protect themselves isn't a slight against anyone. It's good solid advice

But the onus should be on men to not present themselves as a risk. I adore several men individually but as a group they need to do more to police themselves. Women are not responsible for the actions of men but saying we should modify our behaviour in order to keep ourselves safe from the risk men present makes us responsible. More that though - it makes us complicit in our own assaults as there will always be the implication that we were not "careful" enough, we acted in a way that was "risky", we should have "protected" ourselves better.

And when men do get called out for their behaviour, told that those jokes are sexist or that comment was unacceptable or this action was inappropriate, it is invariably women who are the ones calling them out. Why aren't their fellow men calling them out? Why are we responsible for our own behaviour - staying safe, not getting drunk, not going out alone at night - and also responsible for their behaviour? And why, when we do challenge unacceptable behaviour, are we met with calls of "not all men!" and "it's just a joke" and "bloody feminists..."?

There is a difference between being aware and staying as safe as possible, which the tree was about, and male behaviour, which the tree wasn't about.

But it doesn't keep you safe. The advice, if they actually want women to be safe, is don't be friends with, work with, date, marry or be related to any men. Only live with, work with, be friends with and date women. Never ever consent to sex with men, particularly rough sex because then we won't prosecute them for your rape and murder later. Never be alone with men at all.

But that wouldn't serve the purpose of access to women, while still blaming them for rape. It's a neat trick.

It can though. Imagine a scenario where one woman is sober and another passed out on the floor. Who do you suppose is at the most risk?
Assuming both women are the same type that the rapist goes for then both are still at risk.
Some rapists like the woman to fight back, some prefer a passed out drunk victim.

Rape is nothing to do with sex.

And regardless of who gets raped, one of them gets raped. The point is that any advice, even if it works, is just making another woman the victim. Wouldn't it be better to try to reduce the crime, not just change the victim to someone more deserving?

It's a horrifying idea 'make another woman the victim this Christmas'. Even though it actually won't because rape doesn't just happen to drunk women walking Nd home alone.

I don't agree that advising women to be aware of their own safety is victim blaming. Bad example previously on my part but the sentiment remains. We are given safety advice in all aspects of our daily lives. I don't think that means anyone is suggesting any of us are victims.