Victim blaming

[shouldhavecalleditoatabix]

Really interesting conversation last night on works do. Apparently a police force recently'decorated' a Christmas tree in a local church (think the kind of display where lots of charities and groups decorate a small tree) and they chose a 'woman's safety' type theme. My colleague was saying it's caused uproar because the decorations had advice for women like 'don't walk home alone' and 'don't drink too much leaving yourself vulnerable'. Bear in mind I haven't seen the tree so this is me retelling the story. My colleague was saying that women's groups were accusing the force of victim blaming and it had prompted a discussion between his wife and DD. They were all saying they understood but that it is still sound advice because of course it is still an unsafe world out there etc. I said to him, of course they are precautions a lot of women still have to take however, why are we still placing the onus on women to 'protect themselves'? Why did they not have decorations aimed at toxic male behaviour? Why not things about understanding consent? Calling out friends that are behaving that way? Reporting concerns about other males. It was like a light bulb in his mind. He saw it there and then. That's victim blaming says I. We need to turn the conversation round and put the responsibility back on the aggressors.

I found it really interesting that we are still as a society not getting that message home. It looked like it never occurred to him there was an alternative message we could be giving. Pushing men to challenge their own behaviour because in his mind it was just safety advice for women.

But as I said earlier, making us aware of our safety doesn't really prevent anything.

A woman who gets a cab instead of walking home is just as much at risk from the cab driver as she is from a possible rapist lurking in the bushes. A woman getting on a bus is at risk of being followed from the bus.

Sober women are just as at risk if there's a rapist around as a woman who's had a few drinks.

Women in skirts are raped, women in jean's are raped, old ladies at home in bed are raped.

It's all just lip service to push the responsibility onto women.

I don't think on it's own, safety advice for women avoiding predatory men is victim blaming. I think however that there's a lot more emphasis on women keeping themselves safe, and a lot more questions asked of the woman's behaviour leading up to and during any incident, than there is on men not doing it in the first place, or looking at their behaviour. That's where I think victim blaming comes in.
I think it's just accepted that some men will abuse women and no amount of appealing will change that fact, because the men doing that have nothing to lose. The women have a lot to lose, and so are more likely to act upon the advice, than men being asked to not be like that in the first place.
That's what needs to be tackled, the attitude that men can't help it, or can't change etc, they need to take responsibility for what's going on and address it.
Secondly the whole way it's viewed needs to change, women need to stop being seen as some sort of tempting sirens that men have to resist, and some men fail at that resistance and then use how a woman is dressed, how much she has drank, how she consented to sex once etc etc as a reason to introduce doubt to the fact what he did was wrong, that he was somehow lured or fooled into abusing a woman - it turns the whole situation around and makes the man seen as a victim.

Ultimately though, as a woman and a mother of a teen DD, if the advice given in the current climate prevents one woman being raped, then its worth it. Until men are made to take responsibility for their own behaviour, and society's attitudes change towards the whole issue, nothing will change in terms of men not doing it.

On another thread recently a male poster asked me what he should be doing to address rape culture and asked in such a way as if I were being unreasonable to say so.

Until the few (I honestly believe the decent men are far outnumbered, that's just my life experience) good men who really understand consent start to ALWAYS call out the unacceptable comments and actions of the predatory men they associate with - one of his arguments was that he didn't ever associate with men that were remotely sexist which frankly I thought was bullshit because unless he was moving in very small circles my own and many others life experience is such that most men are at the very least sexist and often, perhaps unwittingly so, predatory.

Another argument he put forward was putting himself at risk but he was at that point in the debate arguing as if I and others were expecting him to intervene in clearly already violent altercations when that wasn't what we were saying at all.

The decent men I know can and DO call out other men on inappropriate comments and "jokes" on poor behaviour towards their partners/wives it's really not difficult actually.

Seems to me what they really don't like is maybe being thought of as a "softy" or overly politically correct, a "wimp" or "under the thumb" - which none of the men I know who do this are, they're all in ltr/married to strong women with very equal relationships, their certainly not wimps! 3 are military, 4 are police officers, 2 are a&e nurses, 2 are mh nurses they deal with tough working conditions day in and out but I do wonder if it's partly because the nature of their jobs in the cases of the non military ones brings them into regular contact with rape and sexual assault victims and in the case of the police officers the perpetrators.

The police officers say that the perpetrators tend to be a mix of arrogant, refuse to accept they did anything wrong types and cowards who lie through their teeth to try and avoid prosecution.

The issue of consent and boys and men's understanding of consent MASSIVELY needs to be addressed.

Another mner told of an old now deleted thread on another site where perpetrators were describing the moments when they realised they had raped someone, the majority of these were due to poor understanding or acknowledgement of consent.

The publicity campaigns of safety advice to girls and women are ridiculous - the vast majority of girls and women follow the advice anyway, most of us plan our journeys, watch our drinks, use trusted taxi services etc

In my cases nothing i did would have prevented what happened to me. I've never been raped but I've been assaulted and abused.

In every instance I was sober and in a supposedly safe environment - my childhood home (dad), school in the playground, play parks in daytime, busy shopping malls in daytime, on a train daytime, on a bus daytime, in the workplace with others around at the time...

None of the standard advice to potential victims would have made a damn bit of difference.

I do know women who've been raped - all of them in their home by either their then partner/spouse or by an ex again in their home, 2 cases the ex was supposedly just there to collect their things, in the daytime, no previous indications of the possibility.

The vast majority of rapes occur not because victims have been "stupid" but because perpetrators feel entitled to do so!

Not many posts in, and we have a 'what about the poor men' post. I can't believe I need to say this, but women ARE more at risk, as men are generally bigger and stronger, and statistics will bear this out

I think it's just accepted that some men will abuse women and no amount of appealing will change that fact, because the men doing that have nothing to lose. The women have a lot to lose, and so are more likely to act upon the advice, than men being asked to not be like that in the first place.
That's what needs to be tackled, the attitude that men can't help it, or can't change etc, they need to take responsibility for what's going on and address it.

But one way of tackling this, changing attitudes and pressuring men to start taking responsibility a would be for the police to have awareness campaigns that address men instead of just addressing women, yet again. Addressing them both to warn them about keeping safe themselves, and about them not being molesters and rapists of women, or anyone else. They do have something to lose, status for starters. If a lot of harassment is about status amongst their peers then it needs to be seen as reducing status, not enhancing it.

We are given safety advice in all aspects of our daily lives. I don't think that means anyone is suggesting any of us are victims.

But this advice doesn't make women safer. It doesn't prevent rape.

Not many posts in, and we have a 'what about the poor men' post. I can't believe I need to say this, but women ARE more at risk, as men are generally bigger and stronger, and statistics will bear this out sad

Which posts? I didn't notice any.

But this advice doesn't make women safer. It doesn't prevent rape.

Equally rape isn't the only risk. There are lots of things we need to be cautious of. So staying safe and being aware can only be good advice.

I'm not saying anyone is to blame for ANY crime other than the criminal, but we can take steps to minimise our risk.

Two major issues with the "safety" advice for me.

1. It only applies to the minority of rapes. Not the majority. Most rapes aren't random strangers following you alone in the dark. As up thread actual safely advice would be "don't be alone with men you know especially friends / boyfriends, drunk, sober and no matter how you are dressed' but weirdly no one is likely to follow that advice and for some reason men get offended by it.

2. The advice isn't victim blaming in itself but it then opens the doors for victim blaming afterwards "they know the advice! Everyone knows if you wear skirts, drink alcohol, walk or get taxis, go out at night etc etc you are putting yourself at risk so it's their own fault" when actually it's just people going about their lives doing perfectly normal things.

But one way of tackling this, changing attitudes and pressuring men to start taking responsibility a would be for the police to have awareness campaigns that address men instead of just addressing women, yet again. Addressing them both to warn them about keeping safe themselves, and about them not being molesters and rapists of women, or anyone else.

This.

A campaign that starkly spells out what happens when you assault it rape someone. A campaign telling men that having sex with the drunk woman, the reluctant woman, the woman who said yes to his mate but not to him make him a player or a legend, it makes him a rapist. That misogyny is not 'banter'. That harassment is not 'laughs with the lads'. That it is not acceptable to touch women just because they're in close proximity or they're wearing a tight top. Spell it out for them that predators aren't all dirty old men in flasher macs, that predators are usually people just like them who think it's okay to cop a feel of that woman in the club, who think it's okay to target drunk women because they're more likely to get a shag out of it, who think it's okay to see "no" as a starting point for negotiations rather than the final word, who think buying a cinema ticket and twi cocktails gives them certain rights and expectations, who think that pushing ahead is fine and convince themselves it couldn't have been rape or else she would have fought back.

Except we will never see a campaign like that because men would complain that it's unfair, that not at all men are like that, and that it discriminates against them. Theyll say it's up to women to keep themselves safe from men rather than up to men to not present a danger in the first place.

The "advice" is bullshit because it basically comes down to "me omen police yourselves,because we can't police men".
It comes down to "make sure he raped the other women".

What always bugs in these type of thing is that it's always about stranger/opportunistic rape.

As we sadly know rapists don't care about age,race,outfit or even about the fact that they're closely related to the victim.

Why not have a campaign aimed at men and reducing the rape/laddish culture? Why not, if it's safety have it aimed at both sexes?

As for the analogies with burglaries,thefts etc...you can't lock up your vagina,you can't leave it at home,you can't put it in the bank. If you have one you can be raped no matter how many magical "safety procedures" you follow.

Women get raped at home in their own bed completely sober in three layers of thermals. And they get raped drunk down dark alleys in mini skirts.

If it's by a partner the man gets off, if it's by a stranger the man gets off.

I have no intention of putting myself at more risk than necessary, but if I never want to put myself at risk at all I can never date, have male friends, or basically ever leave the house or trust anyone male.

It's a scary world when we do not hold men accountable for their violence and instead use any number of contradictory value judgments to blame women instead. I don't think women limiting their lives are the answer. I think we need to change the culture of male violence, and that starts with the language we use, seemingly inane things like this Christmas tree idea, and with the proper criminal repercussions.

I was at work in an office and sober when I was raped.

None of those safety measures stopped me from being raped.
The man raped me because he could and he was utterly convinced he would scare me in to silence so that he would get away with it. I know that because he made a point if telling me numerous times while he raped me.

Safety advice against any crime is always good however I always find the "don't get drunk so you won't get raped" kind of advice is nothing victim blaming.

Waffly it was pointed that males get raped and assaulted too. Yes, they do. Not in the same numbers.

kind of advice is nothing but victim blaming.

@Pityparty4one

The decent men I know can and DO call out other men on inappropriate comments and "jokes" on poor behaviour towards their partners/wives it's really not difficult actually

Thing is as Hannah Gadsby point out and correctly imo, these good men need these bad men. How else will they appear to he the good guys.

The reason so few call it out is cos without it they have nothing

I have been sexually harassed in the street/bars/random places, in public, repeatedly for 30 years, since I was well below the age of consent. I can count the number of times good men came to my aid on the fingers of one hand.

Can someone tell men how to prevent sexual violence please? Because I've had a shit fuck ton of practice trying and failing to avoid it.

Apparently a police force recently'decorated' a Christmas tree in a local church (think the kind of display where lots of charities and groups decorate a small tree) and they chose a 'woman's safety' type theme

Are you sure this actually happened though? It's the type of situation that people embellish to make an interesting 'Daily Mail' type story.

Suffolk police

It happened

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/christmas-tree-victim-blaming-baubles-drunk-assault-suffolk-police-ipswich-a9228221.html

Are you sure this actually happened though? It's the type of situation that people embellish to make an interesting 'Daily Mail' type story.

Because the police definitely don't have form for spouting this kind if bs..again and again.

One of the decorations.

I hope a police officer is on here and tell us how we dont leave a drink unattended.

Personally I would always take my drink to the toilet and place it on the windowsill or ledge under the mirror .

But now men can follow us in the toilets now to.

What do we do?

Don't read the comments on the article. They're a depressing parade including one gem that talks about women acting flirtatiously in nightclubs who shouldn't be shocked if men misinterpret it and then take things too far.