David Baddiels comment about Corbyn

[Minionoftheantichrist]

I’ve looked for a thread about this but can’t see one.
David Baddiel picked up that on the leaders debate Corbyn pronounced Epstein in a way that made it sound more Jewish ie Epshteen as opposed to Epsteen. He said every Jew will have noticed this and that it’s another example of Corbyns antisemitism.

I’m Jewish. I’m no fan of Corbyn but really hadn’t noticed this and even now David Baddiel has pointed it out, am struggling to see this as an example of antisemitism. Am I missing something here? Is this antisemitic?

[MonnaLIza]

So @DuchessMustard in what point the great-granddaughter of a Jewish Italian resistance fighter against fascism can be called "racist"?
Please point out at my writings and let me know if they are in any way racists (with exact quotes) and I will be glad to stand corrected.

[MonnaLIza]

@DuchessMustard, why is insulting me ok, but suddenly if one disagrees with you it's insulting all Jews? Why do you think you can speak for a group?

I do not speak for the Jewish people. I do not speak for the Italian State. I do not speak for the Labour Party. I can only speak for me, for what I believe is right.

And what I believe is right is peace, equality, social justice and solidarity. Of all colour and all races.

Shalom & Buonanotte :)

[12345kbm]

@MonnaLIza please don't get wound up by this. It just goes to show when people are debating the pronunciation of a paedo's name, and not talking about his actions, how messed up this all is. It really is the pits and not worth getting het up about. You're not racist, of course you're not.

[FoamingAtTheUterus]

He pronounced it the same way my dp did / does .........and my dp is so away with the fairies he didn't even know what anti semitism meant so definitely no malice behind it..........it seems a bit ridiculous that so much coverage has been given to the pronunciation of a name whilst completely glossing over the fact that Boris Johnson can barely string a sentence together and seems to have more to say about labour policies than his own.

[Gruffalosgrandma]

I have heard both pronunciations by several different newsreaders today . None of them have been accused of anti Semitic.

[SuckingDieselFella]

Which newsreaders? I've never heard a newsreader pronounce it like that and they've had to say his name a lot lately.

[lesleyw1953]

I suspect very few people were aware Epstein was Jewish until Baddiel effectively pointed it out!

[AlexaShutUp]

Epstein is a quintessential Jewish sounding name so surely it’s absolutely obvious to people that he was Jewish no matter how it’s pronounced?

In all honesty, it had not occurred to me to even think about whether or not Epstein was Jewish. It simply didn't cross my mind. I'm obviously aware that lots of Jewish people have surnames that end in the suffix -stein, but I've never really thought about whether everyone with such a name is Jewish. To me, it just sounds Germanic, and had it not been for this thread, I'd probably have defaulted to the German pronunciation, epshtine. Yes, I must have heard it pronounced otherwise on the news, but I can't say that I've paid that much attention. I also hadn't realised that Weinstein was pronounced as Weensteen until reading this thread - I've listened to plenty of stories on the news about Harvey Weinstein, but I obviously didn't register how they were saying it. Or perhaps I just assumed that they were ignorant.

I can't stand Corbyn, and I do think that he has shown very poor leadership with regard to the issue of tackling anti-Semitism in the Labour party. I also think he should have acknowledged in the debate yesterday that he had failed to do enough. However, I think it's a real stretch to suggest that his pronunciation of this name was a reflection of anti-Semitic feeling . I just don't buy that at all, and I think this kind of allegation sadly detracts from the real issues which have clearly been causing a lot of distress for many long-standing members of the party.

FWIW, my daughter always laughs because I apparently say the word "emoji" in a "weird Japanese way". I can't help it, it looks like a Japanese word to me and even though she keeps telling me that I say it "wrong", I always default back to what seems like the right pronunciation to me. I suspect that's what has happened with Corbyn here.

Ironically, I think David Baddiel has drawn far more attention to Epstein's Jewish heritage than any mispronunciation of Corbyn's. Not that it should matter anyway.

[AlexaShutUp]

Thinking about this some more, I'm also wondering why it would be assumed that the original German pronunciation sounds more obviously Jewish than the Americanized version.

[12345kbm]

It doesn't, it's all contrived bollocks to deflect from the selling off the NHS, child poverty and everything else the Tories are doing.

Doubt the vastly wealthy Badiel wants to be taxed more so he's jumped on the bandwagon.

[PrincessFiorimonde]

My money's on Corbyn either being a pedant or simply having a particular pronunciation stuck in his head (perhaps the way the name is pronounced by someone he knows).

A while ago I heard Michael Heseltine repeatedly refer to Diane Abbott as "Dee-ahn". And I recently heard another politician, discussing the last PM, talk about "Ther-ai-sa" May - like the French "Therese" with an "a" on the end.

They must have heard the correct pronunciations of both names countless times, yet they still got them wrong. I don't think there was anything sinister in either case - or in Corbyn's.

[Pixxie7]

How does this make him anti-Semitic? Boris will do anything to put him down.
Although I am aware of the claims in the Labour Party is there any proof that Corbyn himself is?

[OfMe]

I'm not Jewish, but my stepmum is. (If she'd been my bio-mum, then I would be classed as Jewish). DH also has Jewish heritage. I've always been taught to say 'stine', but really wouldn't notice a 'schteen' or a 'steen' as being offensive or rude, no more than our surname being pronounced incorrectly, which also has Old Testament biblical origins (think Aaron, which could be 'air' 'ah' or 'are', at a push). Overthinking it somewhat, I feel, but then, I don't get the antisemitism thing on the whole, anyway. Just seems to be a massively blown out of proportion tiny thing that the Tories have used to pick on and exaggerate. Most family members don't think it's an issue either.

[JamieVardysHavingAParty]

I think this discussion is going about it all in the wrong order.

The first issue is, does pronouncing a German-origin name according to the rules of German orthography flag up Jewish heritage to people who are anti-semitic? Various people on this thread with the life-experience to know say yes. If someone tells us that emphasis on a word is a racist slur against their ethnic group, we tend to belive them, so why are Jews being treated differently when they describe a similar phenomenon?

The second issue is how easy it would be to do by accident. We can't know, but I have spent tonight trying to analyse how I pronounce things out loud, and I've changed my mind from earlier. I don't think I put the sh in German-origin names when I am not speaking German, and I don't think anyone else does, either (although I do have trouble with switching accent to say Berlin). It could be that Corbyn is absolutely the other way around, but no-one says Albert EinSHtyne, do they? And it's not the noted American author, John Shteinbeck, is it?

I would definitely pronounce it Epstyne if I wasn't warned otherwise, but not Epshtyne.

So at this point, the most reasonable explanations are that he is actually anti-semitic, or that he knows a chap or chappette of the same name who pronounces it Epshtyne.

[Danglingmod]

I don't think I've ever read anything so offensive on here as posters gloating that they've donated to a political party in the name of someone who feels attacked by said political party to the extent of wondering if they are safe in their own country.

Anyone else?

Not Jewish, no close Jewish friends, no skin in the game. Just an ordinary, appalled supporter.

[Skolkolet]

Danglingmod

I don't think I've ever read anything so offensive on here as posters gloating that they've donated to a political party in the name of someone who feels attacked by said political party to the extent of wondering if they are safe in their own country.

Anyone else?

It is not just you. I only lurk these days, but registered just to express my disgust at this. It is probably the worst thing I have ever seen on Mumsnet.

The goading and gloating and "Jew baiting" are really blatant.

I'd like Duchess to know that people are reading this and finding it appalling.

[donquixotedelamancha]

I don't think I've ever read anything so offensive on here as posters gloating that they've donated to a political party in the name of someone who feels attacked by said political party to the extent of wondering if they are safe in their own country.

Sadly, yes I've probably read worse; but it really is a dick move. I don't agree with the interpretation of Corbyn's pronunciation but the fact the we are even discussing it as potentially anti-Semitic shows how badly the LP have failed.

Attacking particular Jews who are angry and frustrated is hardly going to convince everyone anti-Semitism is fixed.

[Foslady]

I must be thick then as I hadn’t thought of it as a Jewish name at all.....

[Minionoftheantichrist]

On another thread about perceived racism MN have commented about keeping it on track and that such threads can attract subtly racist posts. Yet on this one blatantly offensive and goady posts about making donations to the Labour Party in offended Jewish posters names go completely unchallenged by MN.

As the OP of this thread I’d like to say how utterly pissed off I am about this. Double standards or what.

[DuchessMustard]

Thank you so much @Minionoftheantichrist I agree completely and I am appalled and very distressed that it has been allowed t1o stand.

[DuchessMustard]

@donquixotedelamancha @Skolkolet @Danglingmod thank you all so much for your support and acknowledgement. It means a huge amount for other people, especially who aren't Jewish themselves, call out this awful, blatant goading racism. Thank you

[MustardScreams]

@DuchessMustard just caught up on the thread. Are you ok?

I’m sorry that small minded people have seen fit to bully you and find it amusing. It’s truly disgusting. Whatever anyone’s views on how JC said Epstein that is never ok.

[Minionoftheantichrist]

Duchess I have reported the worst post. I’m utterly disgusted.

[derxa]

I suspect very few people were aware Epstein was Jewish until Baddiel effectively pointed it out! Absolute rubbish.

[LouMumsnet]

Morning everyone.

We've had a number of reports about this thread and have removed quite a few posts that breached our talk guidelines.

Hopefully the discussion is now back on track but please do report any further posts that you believe to be breaking our guidelines. We'll be happy to take a look.

Thanks all.