Is anyone here non-binary?

[wheresmymojo]

I know it's a sensitive topic and for that reason possibly people won't respond.

I'm trying to get my head around what non-binary means.

I understand the definition: 'neither man nor woman' but what does someone experience as being non-binary?

How do they know they are non-binary?

Would appreciate if this was kept to people who either are non-binary or are close to someone who is as otherwise it will just be a thread of people giving opinions which I can get on other threads.

So as not to dripfeed I'm wondering if it's actually another term for what some people would call genderfree or would say they don't believe in gender or if I have got the wrong end of the stick and feel like I need the view of NB people to help me try to understand if they are different.

It is naive of you to ignore the overwhelming likelihood of someone sexually assaulting you being male.
You sound well-meaning but it's hard to discuss harmful stereotypes with a woman who says she has never experienced any prejudice or discrimination based on her sex. Most girls start experiencing this before they have even left school.

Unfortunatly hopeful, the evidence is that trans identifying people commit sexual crimes at the same rate as their sex, not at the rate of their assume gender. They are also attacked at the same rate as their sexual, not their assumed gender,

Further, one reason for sex segregation is not to prevent attacks, but to acknowledge the discomfort that women who have experienced sexual violence have when eg naked in front of strange men. PTSD is common for victims of sex related violence. And sex related violence has affected approximately one quarter of the uk female population. As you say you have not experienced this, I am asking you please to Have some respect and sympathy for those women. Listen to them.

I don’t understand this at all , I am a female but how do I know whether I feel the same as other females , I only know how I feel. I feel feminine even though My feelings could be exactly the same as someone who doesn’t. It’s all too much for me to get my head round tbh

For a start, I find the whole pronoun thing hurtful. If pronouns are not sex based but instead gender based, then I have to state what gender I am. I am forced to have a gender.

Is that not the purpose of they/them? I don't understand people's utter horror at being asked to use they/them rather than he/she. I don't introduce myself with my pronouns because I am comfortable with what I obviously present as but if someone does introduce themselves and says what they prefer then you can be damn sure I will try my best to use that. Same as if it's on a badge or email signature.

I think if someone presented as what I'm conditioned to see as female I probably would default to she/her but if/when corrected I would apologise and accept whatever that person's preference is and use it. I don't see why anyone wouldn't. I can see though how that could be hurtful and I don't know the solution to it. We are, generally, conditioned to see people as 'binary' male or female and I think we make an unconscious snap judgement (or try to make people fit one of those if we don't think it's immediately obvious).

I don't know if pronouns really are sex or gender based. I've never really had to think about it I suppose.

I think this thread has shown me that I do still have some misconceptions no matter how 'woke' (awful term) I thought I was that may be hurtful or just plain wrong. I'm going to go away, do some more research (also sounds awful when it's about people), reread a lot of these posts and speak about this more in depth with my friend

Hopeful, you are comfortable with the gender expectations that go with being female because you have not experienced these as being restricted, negative or downright harmful. Give it a few years and see if you feel the same. For many women, the sense that equality is not won comes more following marriage or children, both of which have massive societal expectations of what correct feminine behaviour should be.

Which changing room would you like them to use?

I would like them to use the changing room for their own biological sex.

Because until someone can show me the proof that a man declaring himself to actually be a woman instantly removes him from the high risk category of 'male' into the low risk category of 'female', and how that works, I don't want males in women's spaces.

My husband isn't a sexual predator, he is a wonderful man actually, that doesn't mean I think he should be allowed to use female changing rooms.

I would hazard a guess that, whether they identify as non-binary or not, everyone on this thread, the whole of mumsnet and probably even the whole of the world, is non-binary. Because gender is a bullshit social construct and nobody on earth can ever truly embody the exact perfect gender stereotype.

Woman who wears trousers? NB
Man who likes to cook? NB
Woman who watches football? NB
Man who owns a pink shirt? NB

I think you can see what I'm getting at.

I'm hexadecimal.

@Hedgehogblues I'm not sure what I want to say exactly and I apologise in advance if I offend, but thank you for your statement on what has turned out to be quite an aggressive thread. I find your statement sad, that you are unable to be honest and open due to the misogyny of some. I don't understand but at the same time I don't profess to know better.

@Pandaintheporridge I'm not sure it's true to say that I'm comfortable with gender expectations although no, I don't think I have experienced it as a negative. Maybe I have and my conditioning told me it was normal and so I didn't think about it too much? I was a SAHM for a few years and that was expected of me but because it was also what I wanted it didn't feel negative. I've already said that I know I'm coming at this from a place of privilege so maybe I've just been lucky that what I've wanted lines up with societies expectations. I absolutely know that woman are nowhere near having the equality they should but I'm lucky in that enough of the fight has been done to make my life comfortable enough. And that's not me saying that I'm ok so stuff everyone else, I will absolutely point out injustice when I see it and fight against it but I don't believe women's rights and trans rights are at odds with one another. I believe we can coexist and all have rights.

I also never said that I hadn't been assaulted. I just didn't think it was relevant at that point in the discussion. I was 11 and was pinned against a wall and groped by a 40 year old Greek man. It was awful but I do not now think that every 40 year old, every man or every Greek person is the same. I can still see why many survivors do develop ptsd and are fearful, that's completely understandable even if it's not my experience (I don't know why it wasn't and I am grateful that it wasn't worse, either then or since). I understand @MIdgebabe point about assault statistics and I fully believe that to be true but my point was that just because men are statistically more likely to be perpetrators of assault doesn't mean that they are all dressing as women to create the opportunity and so I'm not going to assume that's the case. I really don't think I'm articulating well so I'm actually going to do what I said and go away to make sure I'm more informed in future.

I am gender-free as gender is a construct.

Because gender is a bullshit social construct and nobody on earth can ever truly embody the exact perfect gender stereotype

Exactly these, had this exact thoughts come up in a debate with my brothers.
We referred to it as personality types "A" "B" rather than gender as one brother was getting confused between sex and gender and we speculated probably only 1% would be in either type exclusively.

I understand why you ask because I've often thought the same.

Totally agree gender is a social construct. And I certainly don't adhere to the typical gender stereotype of female - but neither am I masculine. Iyswim?

I wear leggings, fleeces, and a men's gilet this time of year! (Often buy men's stuff as I'm tall!).
But I also love my dresses and my favourite coloured are baby pink, baby blue and purple.

I'm just me with my interests and likes and dislikes.

I'm also female. My sex is female.

I cannot imagine wanting to be a they/them because to me that actually means a nothing. It's not about comform8ng to gender stereotypes but recognising that I'm a she because I'm female sex.

It's very interest8ng to read about why those who identify as non binary do so.

This is getting so stupidly over the top. Can some people just back away? How does it affect anybody apart from non-binary people themselves? For crying out loud, this thread is getting over the top.

And I've said this before on here.

I really struggle with the questioning young children are encouraged to do of their gender from a young age where they don't actually have the emotional understanding or language to do so.

So if in nursery/school a male child chooses to play babies, prays, Barbies or ballerinas - they are asked to consider their gender identities and told it's ok to identify as a girl.
It's reinforcing the social construct of gender stereotype. Leading to people actively deciding not to conform.

If no one actually had an idea that we should conform to in the first place we wouldn't need to question our choices and identities.

We'd all just be who we are and born as male or female sex.

PMed you @wheresmymojo

How does it affect anybody apart from non-binary people themselves?

It bloody affects everyone when people like Sam Smith are saying that they 'feel part female' because they like posing for photos with their bum sticking out at an angle and like boots with a slight heel.

These sorts of stereotypes are so damaging for everyone.

We're all non-binary when it comes to gender, because the alternative is being binary, which basically reinforces harmful gender stereotypes.

Thanks for replying Hopefulfor2020 and I'm sorry about what happened to you as a child.
Funkt posters on here have explained why they think it does impact women so maybe read that and then tell us why you think it doesn't?

@HopefulFor2020 without wanting to sound totally patronising (which I'm sure I still will) I was exactly where you are now with my thinking a few years ago.

I'm sorry you were assaulted, and of course I don't necessarily expect you to think that every 40 year old, or every Greek person, or even every man, is a threat.

But think about why we have certain single sex spaces. Why we don't just have mixed sex prisons, changing rooms, refuges.

98% of sex offences are carried out by males. Males are overwhelmingly the higher risk group. And even the lovely, kind, gentle men are in that 'high risk' group and are therefore excluded from women's spaces. And everyone is fine with this is general.

So what I don't understand is what magically happens when a male declares that he 'identifies as a woman' that means he comes out of the high risk category of male and goes into the low risk category of female. And, given the lengths we know that many men go to to commit offences, why do you think that certain predators wouldn't take advantages of a culture of 'self identification' in order to gain access to vulnerable women?

And this also applies to non-binary people as well. Travis Alabanza is 'non-binary' and was outraged that he wasn't allowed to just choose whether he used to male or female changing room, so that he, as an adult male, could get changed next to teenage girls.

Non-binary just doesn't make sense to me. Does "binary" refer to sex? In that case there is a binary - whether you like it or not you are male or female. Does "binary" refer to gender? In that case surely everyone is non-binary as nobody is 100% one gender stereotype or another. Or is it just shorthand for saying you hate gender stereotypes - in which case, why not just say that? It isn't an identity, it's a valid opinion.

How does it affect anybody apart from non-binary people themselves?

As PeterRouse says it affects us all. Women need to feel safe in the places that are theirs - women’s toilets, changing rooms, refuges, jails etc. I don’t want to compete in a race with a man no matter what pronouns he chooses for himself.

I’m biologically female. I don’t conform to female stereotypes. I don’t feel male or female. I feel like me because I don’t know what feeling female or feeling male consists of.

OP, I don't like to define my gender identity because I see gender as something forced onto me rather than something I happily identify with.

However, if pushed (and to correct people who make lazy assumptions and mislabel me as 'cis'), I explain that my gender identity is agender as I don't identify as any gender.

I have no objection to anyone else using the term non-binary, but I do find it a bit illogical as it's the gender construct which is binary, not the person. I can understand someone saying that they feel that gender is non-binary, but I find it odd that they would go on to say that they themselves are non-binary.

I'm wondering if it's actually another term for what some people would call genderfree

My understanding is that genderfree is an ironic label used to highlight the fact that choosing one's own gender identity is meaningless and wishful thinking as people will obviously be oppressed by society's gender norms whether they choose to be or not. The point is that gender cannot be reclaimed by oppressed individuals in the way, say, an offensive word can.

The women saying they are genderfree don't instantly free themselves from gender, as the misogyny which is often directed at them demonstrates.

The problem is that the joke falls on deaf ears as only the people who recognise gender as an oppressive external force appreciate it, so it's really preaching to the converted.

Gender variant is another term that can describe everybody.

^Gender Variant
Someone who either by nature or by choice does not conform to gender-based expectations of society ^.

Apologies for the absence...

FWIW I consider myself a GC feminist but I also like to make sure I've listened to different points of view and that I understand what people's experience is of being (for example) non-binary.

I feel like the discussions about this kind of topic are becoming a bit like Brexit where no-one tries to figure out a way of respecting each other and a solution that works for everyone but simply just shout opinions at each other.

People take sides - more extreme people on either side get their views amplified - each side reacts to the other by becoming more and more entrenched and polarised. Each side starts to generalise and assume what any individual might think based on what 'side' they're on.

This isn't how anything gets resolved in society. It only leads to polarisation, resentment and sometimes hate.

So that's my tuppence. I know a lot will disagree with me.

Thanks to the couple of people who identify as being non-binary who have reached out by PM. With their agreement (I will ask by PM) I will share a summary of our discussions.

Whatever anyone thinks about this topic I think it's a sad state of affairs that other people on here - regular MN users don't feel they can share their thoughts on the forum as they'll be ripped apart.

Even if we completely disagree with other people surely there has to be a way of behaving that doesn't result in that?

IME though where's, there is a real ageism aspect to it. And yes that probably goes both ways (in fact assuming that the NB person is "younger" here will probably already be counted as ageist, but FYI I'm younger than a lot of them), from what I've seen...

Older woman - "yes I'd be NB by today's terms too, I enjoy trains and high heels"
Younger - "no, that's not what I meant - I don't feel Male or female"
Older - "neither do I, a lot of people don't"
Y - "but I have dysphoria"
O - "so do I"
Y - "no, specifically I don't like my female body"
O - "neither do I, it's what I'm oppressed for"
Y - "no, its not that, it disgusts me"
O - "yes I know, I understand that - feminists believe it is because of the unrealistic expectations on women"
Y - "no, not like that, I'm different. I don't identify as a woman so it can't be that"

Basically it's summed up as (and I struggle to word it without it being read as offensive) Kevin Paterson wailing "but yoouure soooo ollllld"