Is anyone here non-binary?

[wheresmymojo]

I know it's a sensitive topic and for that reason possibly people won't respond.

I'm trying to get my head around what non-binary means.

I understand the definition: 'neither man nor woman' but what does someone experience as being non-binary?

How do they know they are non-binary?

Would appreciate if this was kept to people who either are non-binary or are close to someone who is as otherwise it will just be a thread of people giving opinions which I can get on other threads.

So as not to dripfeed I'm wondering if it's actually another term for what some people would call genderfree or would say they don't believe in gender or if I have got the wrong end of the stick and feel like I need the view of NB people to help me try to understand if they are different.

It reduces other people to stereotypes, if you want an example look at Sam Smith's description of why he is non binary. Loaded with misogyny.

I'm non binary but the responses on this thread are exactly why I choose not to talk about it on mumsnet

Hopeful dear, no I do not think the majority FEEL Male or female. They know they are. But as I tried to explain but you ignored, the idea of being female is some way beyond the pure biological reproductive system and it's implications is something that many people don't feel at all

What I , and I think others , do feel that other people making the assumption about some female nature to my being is hurtful and bordering on abuse. It certainly leads directly to abuse.

And in short, hopeful, can you please be more kind and stop and hopeful, please be more kind to the women who find gender hurtful thank you

Have you not seen any of the "do you feel female" threads here? And I don't mean in FWR, but in general chat. Most women don't "feel" female, they just feel like themselves and happen to have the bits that other females have. The end.

I think you are confusing two things Hopeful.
I don't think non-binary people say they are not biologically one or the other, do they? They aren't intersex for example.
So the "not one or the other" refers to gender not sex, and gender - for women by age anyway - always meant roles , society's expectations of how a male or female should behave. So although I accept I am one sex I cannot accept I fit in with one set of gender roles or expectations. So I guess I am non-binary. But then pretty much everyone would be non-binary, so the term becomes meaningless.

It reduces other people to stereotypes, if you want an example look at Sam Smith's description of why he is non binary. Loaded with misogyny.

Exactly. That's the problem with it Hopeful, that's why people object so much. The concept of "non-binary" assumes a binary. That most people fit into the stereotype roles of "male" or "female"...that stupid Barbie vs GI Joe Mermaids thing.
People aren't either Barbie or GI Joe, they're somewhere in between. There is no binary, therefore there's no non-binary either

Obviously, I am talking about gender not sex! Sex is very much binary.

Apart from anything else, non-binary suggests there is a binary that you don't below to.

If there are a minimum of three categories (say 0-blue, 1-pink, and 0.5-enby) then it's not a bloody binary.

What does it actually mean though?

A good friend of mine is non binary and they way they described it to me was just not feeling either male or female. And that's not just 'well I don't like pretty dresses and I don't like trains so I must not be a gender', it's not identifying with either in any way, the thought or feeling of either set of genitals makes them deeply uncomfortable. They feel like they were born in the wrong body but neither of the options available 'fit'.

Ultimately we do not know the reasons some people have this sort of dysphoria. But you will not stop people just assuming the dresses / trains thing.

In the normal scheme of things just asserting an unproven negative blanket stereotype about an entire group would be called prejudice, but the rules seem to be different in this debate.

And so no, your friend is NGB because they realised that they did not like dresses or trains, and so came to the conclusion that they must be neither.

What does it actually mean though?

It apparently means that you don't feel male or female.....whatever that means.

Obviously all non-binary people are either male or female. Surely everything else is just your personality.

I actually find 'non-binary' offensive because all it does is reinforce a gender binary that is actually incredibly damaging to both men and women. As others have said, see Sam Smith for the perfect example of this. Non-binary because he likes a Cuban heel on his boots and likes to watch rom coms? Fuck off.

My friend declared themselves "non-binary", with they/them pronouns. But they still dress in "female" typical clothes, wear makeup etc. We all just go with what they want to call themselves and then just try not to slip up.

I thought the "born in the wrong body" idea was completely out of favour in the modern trans community?

Years ago as a young woman I bought into the binary gender shit too. As I'm aspie I was told my brain was male. Fortunately I realised that just because I didn't like shopping and glitter and have perfectly manicured nails it didn't mean I was any less of a woman than any other female bodied person. There is no one way to be a woman or a man.

A good friend of mine is non binary and they way they described it to me was just not feeling either male or female. And that's not just 'well I don't like pretty dresses and I don't like trains so I must not be a gender', it's not identifying with either in any way, the thought or feeling of either set of genitals makes them deeply uncomfortable. They feel like they were born in the wrong body but neither of the options available 'fit'.

See, this is what I don't get. Finding your own genitals 'deeply uncomfortable' and feeling that much discomfort with the physical body that you are in, suggests a mental health condition that requires therapy. Not to be 'celebrated' alongside being gay.

So although I accept I am one sex I cannot accept I fit in with one set of gender roles or expectations. So I guess I am non-binary.

This is how I explained it to my children, one of whom is being taught about this at school . Your born sex has nothing whatsoever to do with gender and societally imposed gender roles and assumptions. I believe it really is that simple. This is why I have no patience with non binary and demands to accommodate it and can not be bothered to discuss it with those who support these ideas, you never get anywhere. Just get told you're mean and bigoted. These ideas are damaging and based on nothing real yet we are expected to change how we speak, what we observe and give up safe spaces to accommodate it. If we take it seriously it will engulf us, it already is. I will not pretend; I will not be forced into someone else's belief system when it goes against my own, which is; you are Female or Male, unless in very rare cases you are intersex. How you then choose to live or present is up to you and good luck to you, I couldn't care less, but fundamentally you are one sex or the other and I will not be forced into changing my own beliefs for yours.

@MIdgebabe I'm sorry if you feel I ignored your points, it wasn't at all intentional.

Maybe I used the wrong word with 'feel'?

I don't think I explain myself well because I have never had to go through the internal conflict (?) myself. Please don't think that means that I am belittling others experiences. I would love to fully understand but I'm not sure that will ever be possible for me because I am fortunate? privileged? enough (I'm probably using the wrong words) to feel/know that my biological sex matches with who I believe I am and how I feel and so I fit society's stereotype of 'female'

I've reread your previous post and yes, I can understand why gender stereotypes can be harmful. Again, I'm coming from a place of privilege where I've never noticed any discrimination towards me due to my sex/gender. I'm sure there has been some but it obviously hasn't impacted me significantly.

I'm very much of the live and let live type. If you tell me your name is Bob that's what I'll call you even if I think you look like a Janet (I'll keep that thought to myself). It's not my place to tell people who they are, how they should present themselves, what they can wear or anything like that. What I do object to is other people doing just that and telling people that they're making it up and that they must be male or female.

Again, I'm sorry if anything I've said is offensive. Please do pull me up on it!

I thought the "born in the wrong body" idea was completely out of favour in the modern trans community?

Who fucking knows...

We are told that being trans is not a mental health condition and how dare you suggest it is, that is just like the homophobia of days gone by.

And we are also told that if kids are not given irreversible, life changing drugs and surgery at a young age, or we don't let males into women's prisons, refuges, sports, changing areas, then they will all kill themselves.

So...... 🤷‍♀️

It reduces other people to stereotypes, if you want an example look at Sam Smith's description of why he is non binary. Loaded with misogyny.

That is just one individual. Without making any assertions about this one person, as I am not familiar with themm, there probably are people who conform to the stereotypes of 'I like don't like pink blue therefore I must be... '. You can find specific people in any group to confirm whatever generalisations / stereotypes you wish to assert about the whole group.

I'm very much of the live and let live type. If you tell me your name is Bob that's what I'll call you even if I think you look like a Janet (I'll keep that thought to myself). It's not my place to tell people who they are, how they should present themselves, what they can wear or anything like that. What I do object to is other people doing just that and telling people that they're making it up and that they must be male or female.

What if someone who looks like a Bob is telling you he is actually a Janet and is trying to use the women's changing rooms? Would you still keep that thought to yourself?

I wonder how 'non-binary' one can be when you're booking yourself in for a smear test, or for a cough and drop testicle examination.

Biology innit. Binary - 2 - male and female. The rest is just feelings and how you want to express yourself. Fucking get on with it. If this is what people agonise over, they really haven't got enough to do.

Well, Welshmoth, according to a post that I saw re organising XR, anyone who is stopped by police has the right to be searched by someone with the same gender as themselves. Whichever of the 300 you should choose. And I hope for the police's sake they don't have a fluid one...

according to all the definitions of non binary I can see when I google, which is not feeling properly masculine or feminine, then I guess I am and so are most people I know

For a start, I find the whole pronoun thing hurtful. If pronouns are not sex based but instead gender based, then I have to state what gender I am. I am forced to have a gender.

What if someone who looks like a Bob is telling you he is actually a Janet and is trying to use the women's changing rooms? Would you still keep that thought to yourself?

Which changing room would you like them to use? If they were staring at anyone else or became abusive and started assaulting people I'd either say something or, most likely, I'd leave and report to the store manager. I'd do that whether it was Bob, Janet, Sam or xygog from planet G. Straight people can be predators, gay people can be predators, trans people can be predators, non binary people can be predators, anyone could try to dress as anyone or anything if they had the motivation to do so. Personally, I refuse to default to suspicion, maybe that is naive of me but my belief is that the massive majority of people who say they are trans/non binary are genuine and are more likely to be a victim of an assault (sexual or otherwise) than a perpetrator